This Thread Blows - C19 and beyond

HenryK said:
CDC Study Finds Natural Immunity better than Vaccine vs Delta variant. 1-19-22

Link to report below, short version should be on your favorite news source with the usual spins.

www.cdc.gov

COVID-19 Cases and Hospitalizations by COVID-19 ...

This report describes COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations by vaccination status and previous COVID-19 diagnosis before and after the Delta variant became predominant.
www.cdc.gov www.cdc.gov
Click to expand...
So regardless of whether you had a previous infection or not, vaccines help. During Delta previous infection+vaccine> previous infection> vaccinated> no previous infection+no vaccination. During omicron? Who knows? So we don't know what works best right now, only what has worked best so far in the past. Either way, why not get the vaccine?
What is this argument about again? I don't really care about any of the mandates or anything anymore. I still believe if you work in healthcare, or if you work with children who can't get vaccinated (teachers, daycare, etc..) you should be required to get vaccinated. And I still think people who haven't had covid and aren't vaccinated are idiots.
 
Report dated yesterday. So bringing new information to the table.

So maybe my neighbor will read it and get vaccinated after catching it twice with a month in a hospital on the first loop.
 
Mahnken said:
So regardless of whether you had a previous infection or not, vaccines help. During Delta previous infection+vaccine> previous infection> vaccinated> no previous infection+no vaccination. During omicron? Who knows? So we don't know what works best right now, only what has worked best so far in the past. Either way, why not get the vaccine?
What is this argument about again? I don't really care about any of the mandates or anything anymore. I still believe if you work in healthcare, or if you work with children who can't get vaccinated (teachers, daycare, etc..) you should be required to get vaccinated. And I still think people who haven't had covid and aren't vaccinated are idiots.
Click to expand...
Because I went almost a year and half without a vaccine, had constant exposure, and somehow managed to not get it again, nor give it to anyone in my family; couple that with ZERO liability to the manufacturer/provider/employer/entity mandating it, along with an arduous (I'm being kind) process for a claim of injury (yes, they are real, and severely underreported), well I think that's a reason for a conversation. Where there is risk, there must also be choice; the mandates are coercion. Big difference, and it's open to a wonderfully complex ethical debate, something we still haven't seen happen.

Looked at another way, my immunity against covid was fine when there wasn't a vaccine; I wasn't asked to test, nor was I quarantined for exposure. Fast forward, I'm a danger to my patients in September if I'm not vaccinated, so I will be fired. I get the vaccine, everything is supposed to be ok, but wait, now if I have a positive test, I have to quarantine for 5 days (not 10-14 anymore, because I'm "essential"). If I'm asymptomatic though, I can go right back to treating patients. But NOW you also 'need' a booster (that whole titer checking we've done for 40+ years for previous vaccinations no longer is scientific I guess). So tell me again why am I mandated to get a vaccine/booster because I work in healthcare?

Let's also keep in mind that the Cleveland Clinic looked at this almost a year ago, and came to the conclusion that there was little benefit in vaccinating their employees who recovered from covid. Those of us who recovered from covid after acquiring it in the service of helping others should be lauded for taking the hit, not punished for it, and that's what these capricious, unscientific edicts are, a punishment put forth by ignorant, fearful people.
 
Last edited:
rick81721 said:
So? Just like every other for-profit business.
Click to expand...

insurance companies have no product - it is cash-in, invest, cash-out.

how about this, they insure you, insure your dr + nurses, and insure the hospital. Medicare negotiates the best rate,
and companies works off of that. all they are doing is skimming off the top. They don't start out as public companies.
so is going public the only way the owners can get their value out?

NJM is not a public co, it is "owned" by the policy holders, and if they have a surplus, it is refunded.
 
Patrick said:
insurance companies have no product - it is cash-in, invest, cash-out.

how about this, they insure you, insure your dr + nurses, and insure the hospital. Medicare negotiates the best rate,
and companies works off of that. all they are doing is skimming off the top. They don't start out as public companies.
so is going public the only way the owners can get their value out?

NJM is not a public co, it is "owned" by the policy holders, and if they have a surplus, it is refunded.
Click to expand...

Yes it's a service industry - again, so what?
 
rick81721 said:
Yes it's a service industry - again, so what?
Click to expand...

there is no reason for it to be for-profit. it could be not-for-profit, and save everyone 3%.

you should go with the claim that for-profit, publicly accountable businesses are more efficient,
hence it is actually saving the policy holder money.
 
Bikeworks said:
Because I went almost a year and half without a vaccine, had constant exposure, and somehow managed to not get it again, nor give it to anyone in my family; couple that with ZERO liability to the manufacturer/provider/employer/entity mandating it, along with an arduous (I'm being kind) process for a claim of injury (yes, they are real, and severely underreported), well I think that's a reason for a conversation. Where there is risk, there must also be choice; the mandates are coercion. Big difference, and it's open to a wonderfully complex ethical debate, something we still haven't seen happen.

Looked at another way, my immunity against covid was fine when there wasn't a vaccine; I wasn't asked to test, nor was I quarantined for exposure. Fast forward, I'm a danger to my patients in September if I'm not vaccinated, so I will be fired. I get the vaccine, everything is supposed to be ok, but wait, now if I have a positive test, I have to quarantine for 5 days (not 10-14 anymore, because I'm "essential"). If I'm asymptomatic though, I can go right back to treating patients. But NOW you also 'need' a booster (that whole titer checking we've done for 40+ years for previous vaccinations no longer is scientific I guess). So tell me again why am I mandated to get a vaccine/booster because I work in healthcare?

Let's also keep in mind that the Cleveland Clinic looked at this almost a year ago, and came to the conclusion that there was little benefit in vaccinating their employees who recovered from covid. Those of us who recovered from covid after acquiring it in the service of helping others should be lauded for taking the hit, not punished for it, and that's what these capricious, unscientific edicts are, a punishment put forth by ignorant, fearful people.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying, and maybe the hospitals will eventually count a previous infection as being vaccinated. But you had to get all types of vaccines just to get into nursing school, and to work at a hospital. You have to get the flu vaccine every year. I just can't understand why anyone would think it would any different for a new disease that now has a vaccine. I feel there has still always been a choice. You could have choose not to work during the pandemic. You could choose not to work instead of getting a vaccine, there's also plenty of work from home RN jobs that may not require vaccination because you won't be directly working with patients. So I dunno, they may not be choices you like, but there's always a choice.
 
Patrick said:
there is no reason for it to be for-profit. it could be not-for-profit, and save everyone 3%.

you should go with the claim that for-profit, publicly accountable businesses are more efficient,
hence it is actually saving the policy holder money.
Click to expand...

"No reason"? Ever hear of capitalism? How about no industry should be for profit? That's silly.

In any event, some are, some aren't. Are their profits unreasonable? I don't think so:

https://www.verywellhealth.com/health-insurance-companies-unreasonable-profits-1738941

We have choice. If you don't want health insurance by a for-profit company, choose a non-profit. In NJ: Horizon BCBS is one.
 
Mahnken said:
I get what you're saying, and maybe the hospitals will eventually count a previous infection as being vaccinated. But you had to get all types of vaccines just to get into nursing school, and to work at a hospital. You have to get the flu vaccine every year. I just can't understand why anyone would think it would any different for a new disease that now has a vaccine. I feel there has still always been a choice. You could have choose not to work during the pandemic. You could choose not to work instead of getting a vaccine, there's also plenty of work from home RN jobs that may not require vaccination because you won't be directly working with patients. So I dunno, they may not be choices you like, but there's always a choice.
Click to expand...
The vaccines for school and work are part of the childhood vaccine schedule, and all you are required to do is show proof of vaccination, or have your titers checked. The flu vaccine has an opt out option. None of that is the case for covid (in NY and NJ), and the inconsistency in that messaging is where the pushback/hesitancy comes from.

Not having a paycheck is not a choice, especially if one is forced to resign vs collecting unemployment so as to find another job. There are not "plenty" of RN jobs you can do from home, and in NY my choices would have been further limited by the lack of compact in NY. I could go ahead and drive an Uber, so if you feel that's a fair and equitable 'choice' for a RN who selflessly served during a pandemic and beyond, then we can just end the conversation here. Yes, let's do that and not speak of it again.

Next topic on the Covid wheel please!!!
 
rick81721 said:
"No reason"? Ever hear of capitalism? How about no industry should be for profit? That's silly.

In any event, some are, some aren't. Are their profits unreasonable? I don't think so:

https://www.verywellhealth.com/health-insurance-companies-unreasonable-profits-1738941

We have choice. If you don't want health insurance by a for-profit company, choose a non-profit. In NJ: Horizon BCBS is one.
Click to expand...
Healthcare shouldn't be for profit. It isn't just some commodity, it's people's lives. It further diminishes access to healthcare, it erodes physician/patient relationships, and it reduces quality of care. Healthcare should be a right.
 
rick81721 said:
"No reason"? Ever hear of capitalism? How about no industry should be for profit? That's silly.

In any event, some are, some aren't. Are their profits unreasonable? I don't think so:

https://www.verywellhealth.com/health-insurance-companies-unreasonable-profits-1738941

We have choice. If you don't want health insurance by a for-profit company, choose a non-profit. In NJ: Horizon BCBS is one.
Click to expand...
I’m all for companies making a profit, but BCBS should be recognized as a for profit company.
 
Mahnken said:
I get what you're saying, and maybe the hospitals will eventually count a previous infection as being vaccinated. But you had to get all types of vaccines just to get into nursing school, and to work at a hospital. You have to get the flu vaccine every year. I just can't understand why anyone would think it would any different for a new disease that now has a vaccine. I feel there has still always been a choice. You could have choose not to work during the pandemic. You could choose not to work instead of getting a vaccine, there's also plenty of work from home RN jobs that may not require vaccination because you won't be directly working with patients. So I dunno, they may not be choices you like, but there's always a choice.
Click to expand...
You OK with the choice Alan Turing was given?

Not saying it's the same thing, but it's not too far off. If people had no concerns about the vaccine they'd just go get the shot. But there's a lot of concerns that may be legitimate on getting it, including boosters after already infected. And as Bikeworks is trying to say, a lot of these decisions are not made based on science but on how the political winds are blowing that week.

Mahnken said:
Healthcare shouldn't be for profit. It isn't just some commodity, it's people's lives. It further diminishes access to healthcare, it erodes physician/patient relationships, and it reduces quality of care. Healthcare should be a right.
Click to expand...
We could say that about many things, but currently it's the system we have. Hopefully it changes in the future but it's what we've got.

Paraphrasing Kurt Vonnegut - "Being Anti-war is like being Anti-iceburg" We have this healthcare system and we need to live with it while trying to change it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: don
Bikeworks said:
The vaccines for school and work are part of the childhood vaccine schedule, and all you are required to do is show proof of vaccination, or have your titers checked. The flu vaccine has an opt out option. None of that is the case for covid (in NY and NJ), and the inconsistency in that messaging is where the pushback/hesitancy comes from.

Not having a paycheck is not a choice, especially if one is forced to resign vs collecting unemployment so as to find another job. There are not "plenty" of RN jobs you can do from home, and in NY my choices would have been further limited by the lack of compact in NY. I could go ahead and drive an Uber, so if you feel that's a fair and equitable 'choice' for a RN who selflessly served during a pandemic and beyond, then we can just end the conversation here. Yes, let's do that and not speak of it again.

Next topic on the Covid wheel please!!!
Click to expand...
My hospital doesn't offer an opt out for the flu vaccine. Did you selflessly serve? Or did you, as you mention, not have a choice, you know paycheck and all.
 
Bikeworks said:
The vaccines for school and work are part of the childhood vaccine schedule, and all you are required to do is show proof of vaccination, or have your titers checked. The flu vaccine has an opt out option. None of that is the case for covid (in NY and NJ), and the inconsistency in that messaging is where the pushback/hesitancy comes from.

Not having a paycheck is not a choice, especially if one is forced to resign vs collecting unemployment so as to find another job. There are not "plenty" of RN jobs you can do from home, and in NY my choices would have been further limited by the lack of compact in NY. I could go ahead and drive an Uber, so if you feel that's a fair and equitable 'choice' for a RN who selflessly served during a pandemic and beyond, then we can just end the conversation here. Yes, let's do that and not speak of it again.

Next topic on the Covid wheel please!!!
Click to expand...
Did you need to get a Hep B vaccine? I had to get that when I worked in the hospital setting. That wasn’t part of the childhood vaccines.
‘I’m not really following your arguments, if I need to go to the hospital, I would want the people treating me to be Covid free, or at least know the status
 
Mahnken said:
Healthcare shouldn't be for profit. It isn't just some commodity, it's people's lives. It further diminishes access to healthcare, it erodes physician/patient relationships, and it reduces quality of care. Healthcare should be a right.
Click to expand...

The old healthcare = health insurance canard.
 
Mahnken said:
My hospital doesn't offer an opt out for the flu vaccine. Did you selflessly serve? Or did you, as you mention, not have a choice, you know paycheck and all.
Click to expand...

Lol, sure. I got paid for being a 9/11 first responder, too, selfish bastard that I am. Seriously, take a step back for a minute and reset, I don't really believe you mean where you're going with this stuff right now.
 
roc said:
Did you need to get a Hep B vaccine? I had to get that when I worked in the hospital setting. That wasn’t part of the childhood vaccines.
‘I’m not really following your arguments, if I need to go to the hospital, I would want the people treating me to be Covid free, or at least know the status
Click to expand...
No, I did not as it isn't required, and it is part of the childhood vaccine schedule for over 20 years, but not for the old heads so I get your point. Doesn't protect the patient, only you, so it's not the same, either.

I am covid free, and a vaccine wasn't what made that happen. Apparently that, coupled with the vaccine, now makes me bulletproof. There's tons of science out there that illustrates that, so I don't know what part of my "arguments" you are having trouble following.
 
  • Like
Reactions: don
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom