Bikes and Moto-bikes - why do they cost… the same?

UtahJoe said:
I like @jdog comparison more in a realistic sense....and even that...High end bikes to high end motorcycles...its like comparing apples and bowling balls in terms of manufacturing costs.

Companies like KTM, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki....they are industrial GIANTS of manufacturing....They have massive assembly plants to make things such as engines where every step in the process has been broken down for maximum efficiency.....Compared to Pivots frame manufacturer where a human is hand painting each frame.

This is what ktm's MOVING assembly line looks like
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compared to this piece of warehouse space that pivot uses to put its bikes together by hand
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Think about building a modern bike....whats the most time consuming parts of the build process? Its not putting the cranks or shock on....its the details....Its running the cables thru the frame, getting all the bullshit on the bar set up, trimming cables......Motorcyles are not built this way....There is a rear brake caliper, line, master, foot brake that gets put on at once, and its done. Everything is designed around the fact that it will be assembled on an assembly line and each step can only take X amount of time. This is one MAJOR price difference. Then add in the number being built per year....How many switchblades do they make vs how many KTM 350s??? I dont know, but im quite certain its WAY more ktms. Then factor in that on a high end switchblade, pivot is essentially making the frame and thats about it. Every other part of the bike is made by someone else and every other company in that chain has to make its own profit. KTM has its own Engine plant....Honda owns a good portion of its suspension maker (Showa) and also Keihin (who made the carburetors) Pivot on the other hand has to deal with Fox, shimano, sram, etc component maker.


Now if you want to go pay ~$50,000 for a Ducati, ok maybe its a bit more hand massaged.

This is another good point...I have been to an EWS and have seen the factory riders bikes.....very close to what I was riding....some did have the live valve stuff, etc, but not too different.

Factory motocross bike? HA!! I remember in article in the 90s about Ezra Lusk's supercross CR250...its cost $80,000 for honda to build it and that was 25 years ago.

Bottom line, if motorcycles were built like bikes, that shitty 250 ninja would cost 30-40,000 id guess.
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Yea, but look where those KTM's are made vs. a modern bike. Those guys are getting a fair wage, pension, medical, etc. MTB's are made in modern day versions of sweat shops. And assembling a bike looks a lot more simple than assembling a motorcycle. I think it all comes back around to what the consumer is willing to pay.
 
Captain Brainstorm said:
Yea, but look where those KTM's are made vs. a modern bike. Those guys are getting a fair wage, pension, medical, etc. MTB's are made in modern day versions of sweat shops. And assembling a bike looks a lot more simple than assembling a motorcycle. I think it all comes back around to what the consumer is willing to pay.
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I wish I had the photos I have seen of the facility where pivots are made. It looks like an operating room. Chris Colcalis has insane oversight in every stage of the process. This is no sweat shop. Not many brands will show dealers images of the inside of factories, but pivot does and will.
 
jdog said:
I wish I had the photos I have seen of the facility where pivots are made. It looks like an operating room. Chris Colcalis has insane oversight in every stage of the process. This is no sweat shop. Not many brands will show dealers images of the inside of factories, but pivot does and will.
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And on the other extreme, the amount of artistry and manual labor that goes into each frame is worth the $2K for the frame.
 
This thread got me thinking about another industry that’s even more absurd, guitars. People are willing to pay $3,500 more for a guitar made in the same factory, on the same machines, using the same materials, by the same people because 1 person did it all pretty good instead of going down a line where everyone is the absolute best at their 1 job 😂

Companies like Gibson get up to 10k more for an instrument that best case scenario plays like a $800 guitar by anyone else. That’s the equivalent of buying the base model Stumpjumper for S-Works money. And they get it all day long no questions asked.

So let companies charge whatever someone is willing to pay, tons of people have an absurd amount of disposable income and have zero issue letting go of it.
 
Steve Vai said:
This thread got me thinking about another industry that’s even more absurd, guitars. People are willing to pay $3,500 more for a guitar made in the same factory, on the same machines, using the same materials, by the same people because 1 person did it all pretty good instead of going down a line where everyone is the absolute best at their 1 job 😂

Companies like Gibson get up to 10k more for an instrument that best case scenario plays like a $800 guitar by anyone else. That’s the equivalent of buying the base model Stumpjumper for S-Works money. And they get it all day long no questions asked.

So let companies charge whatever someone is willing to pay, tons of people have an absurd amount of disposable income and have zero issue letting go of it.
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I haven't caught this high end guitar bug, but it's coming. I had a knee replacement last dec and I figured there was no time better than that to learn guitar. I was actually given 4 guitars in about a month's span but none of them really got me going. The electric was interesting, and someone I knew gave me a nice enough washburn, but I was actually more interested in the acoustic.
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I had a amount I wanted to spend but I wasn't super concerned on budget. I even brought my wife with me guitar shopping and she gave her blessing. We were in Daytona Beach around that time and we stopped at the Guitar Center across the street from the daytona raceway. The whole place is super FL and weird, the guys there were straight out of a 80's movie, but super nice. I hadn't the skills yet for anything more that 4 basic chords, so I asked a guy there to play a few guitars for me so I could hear how they sounded when someone better than a money played them. I didn't even look at prices. In the end I settled on a used, mass produced PRS. It was far from the most expensive in the room, but it sounded the best to me. I also couldn't resist the birds. By the end of that afternoon, there were 4 guys in there all ripping on each of these guitars and jockeying for which one they thought I should buy. (I was also texting photos to @capers in real time) I almost went for the MTBNJ Blue/orange one, but It was just a bit over the top for my taste. I'm now 10 months in with a solid lesson most weeks. I'm having a blast and I have had some more expensive guitars in my hands, but none that have made me open my empty wallet for the next step up to the private stock.




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I think about this experience and I can relate to many of the customers who I deal with who don't want to be a poser and show up on the trail with a 10K mtb for their first ride. I do think the experience can be better for just about anyone on a higher end bike, but I also think that it's important to isolate and understand the point of diminishing return on investment when bike shopping (and maybe guitar).

I recently have been goofing around with SRAM transmission on the Ebike and I have come to realized that while it is slower that the 1st gen axs, it is basically meant for abuse. This is a technology that a beginner can really utlize. It basically won't let you misshift. Even on a ebike while towing a kid.

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After Shifting, Tubeless is likely my 2nd fav tech that new riders should not ignore. I remember in the 90's where there was ALWAYS a flat on every group ride. Now it's uncommon or maybe rare.

How does this relate to Moto / Bicycle costs. Not sure. Pick your poison wisely, take advice from those who have experience and who have already made every mistake under the sun.

I think I bought 7 motorcycles before I understood what I wanted in a bike. Now i can't go back..

..and that's it for my 3am ramble

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Captain Brainstorm said:
Yea, but look where those KTM's are made vs. a modern bike. Those guys are getting a fair wage, pension, medical, etc. MTB's are made in modern day versions of sweat shops. And assembling a bike looks a lot more simple than assembling a motorcycle. I think it all comes back around to what the consumer is willing to pay.
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well I was comparing the KTM workers to the pivot workers.....

Compare walmart bike builders to cheap China made motorcycle bought on amazon and im sure that the sweat shop comparison you are referring to

And, yes...it is also what the market will bare....But the market for high end bikes is pretty small...I mean maybe in our fishbowl we feel like we are part of some big group that loves top quality bikes, but were not that big of a group. And we have shown that we will pay extra for nonsense like kashima coatings, carbon fiber seat rails, and pretty much anything ceramic speed makes 🙂
 
jdog said:
I wish I had the photos I have seen of the facility where pivots are made. It looks like an operating room. Chris Colcalis has insane oversight in every stage of the process. This is no sweat shop. Not many brands will show dealers images of the inside of factories, but pivot does and will.
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I'm sure the facility is spotless but come on, the average yearly salary in Taiwan is around $20k a year, and assembling a moto requires way more people than a bike.

UtahJoe said:
well I was comparing the KTM workers to the pivot workers.....

Compare walmart bike builders to cheap China made motorcycle bought on amazon and im sure that the sweat shop comparison you are referring to

And, yes...it is also what the market will bare....But the market for high end bikes is pretty small...I mean maybe in our fishbowl we feel like we are part of some big group that loves top quality bikes, but were not that big of a group. And we have shown that we will pay extra for nonsense like kashima coatings, carbon fiber seat rails, and pretty much anything ceramic speed makes 🙂
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MTB is a niche within a niche for sure, and I agree, I see maybe one person on a $10-11k bike a year, but lets talk about bikes that aren't at the tippy top. These days they're still asking $5-7k for a bike with mid-tier componentry. I'm a Pivot fan, and I'm thinking of a Firebird as my next bike, and the cheapest spec bike is SLX/XT with Fox Performance suspension for $6.5k before tax! I know that I can go find a leftover for cheaper if I wanted to, but I got my current bike with top spec suspension and carbon wheels for 5 and change.

I will caveat all this and say if I won that $1.7B, I'd have bought myself and everyone here a $10k bike with ceramic, carbon, and gold everything.
 
Steve Vai said:
This thread got me thinking about another industry that’s even more absurd, guitars. People are willing to pay $3,500 more for a guitar made in the same factory, on the same machines, using the same materials, by the same people because 1 person did it all pretty good instead of going down a line where everyone is the absolute best at their 1 job 😂
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...and then those people will change out the pickups, frets, tuner pegs, etc. so there's barely anything left of the original! There's a sub-niche withing our sub-niche that does the same thing on high end bikes.
 
stb222 said:
This convo
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Steve Vai said:
This thread got me thinking about another industry that’s even more absurd, guitars. People are willing to pay $3,500 more for a guitar made in the same factory, on the same machines, using the same materials, by the same people because 1 person did it all pretty good instead of going down a line where everyone is the absolute best at their 1 job 😂

Companies like Gibson get up to 10k more for an instrument that best case scenario plays like a $800 guitar by anyone else. That’s the equivalent of buying the base model Stumpjumper for S-Works money. And they get it all day long no questions asked.

So let companies charge whatever someone is willing to pay, tons of people have an absurd amount of disposable income and have zero issue letting go of it.
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But those guitars appreciate or generally hold their value. Bikes do not.

Are you willing to give my neighbor what he paid for his 2002 Specialized big hit? If so I will put you in contact. I think that was around $2600

I would however be more than happy to pay 2008 Retail for a Gibson R8 - $2300
 
Johnny Utah said:
But those guitars appreciate or generally hold their value. Bikes do not.

Are you willing to give my neighbor what he paid for his 2002 Specialized big hit? If so I will put you in contact. I think that was around $2600

I would however be more than happy to pay 2008 Retail for a Gibson R8 - $2300
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You can always get a Kirk Hammett Greeny for a cool $3k, isn't it essentially a 59 reissue? Or you could by the version that they sell for $20k that was made by 1 dude at the factory, and hope that that 1 dude was having a good day.
 
Captain Brainstorm said:
You can always get a Kirk Hammett Greeny for a cool $3k, isn't it essentially a 59 reissue? Or you could by the version that they sell for $20k that was made by 1 dude at the factory, and hope that that 1 dude was having a good day.
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I try to play them first to see how the quality is and if I like the neck profile. One builders bad day may fit the preference of some player. Beyond some finish issues - which get sold in the demo or mod shop BTW - the guitars are pretty solid.

The brand has really upped quality since 2020. I avoid 2008-2019 unless they are Custom Shops.

The demand was so high for the custom Greeny’s you had to sign a waiver noting you would not sell it for a year. With the high end artists proof models you are arguably buying art/an experience. Those guitars normally hit the market at 150% of retail when the go on the second hand market.

If I was forced to put $50k of my money on Gibson guitars or bicycles - I’ll take the guitars.

Further - if I buy $50k in Tesla Stock and sell it for $70k I am forced to pay capital gains. Not so much with the guitar🙃
 
Johnny Utah said:
I try to play them first to see how the quality is and if I like the neck profile. One builders bad day may fit the preference of some player. Beyond some finish issues - which get sold in the demo or mod shop BTW - the guitars are pretty solid.

The brand has really upped quality since 2020. I avoid 2008-2019 unless they are Custom Shops.

The demand was so high for the custom Greeny’s you had to sign a waiver noting you would not sell it for a year. With the high end artists proof models you are arguably buying art/an experience. Those guitars normally hit the market at 150% of retail when the go on the second hand market.

If I was forced to put $50k of my money on Gibson guitars or bicycles - I’ll take the guitars.

Further - if I buy $50k in Tesla Stock and sell it for $70k I am forced to pay capital gains. Not so much with the guitar🙃
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I like the analogy to buying/selling art, because I think that's appropriate when it comes to high-end guitars, particularly Gibson and Fenders. I bought a custom shop Strat back in the early 2000's when I was in my blues phase that's now worth 3x what I bought it for. Amazing.
 
Johnny Utah said:
But those guitars appreciate or generally hold their value. Bikes do not.

Are you willing to give my neighbor what he paid for his 2002 Specialized big hit? If so I will put you in contact. I think that was around $2600

I would however be more than happy to pay 2008 Retail for a Gibson R8 - $2300
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Speaking of which, who wants to buy my Mesa Boogie Mark II amp I bought new in 1978? All it needs is a new tube for full 100 W power. Even have the original cover and paperwork.

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rick81721 said:
Speaking of which, who wants to buy my Mesa Boogie Mark II amp I bought new in 1978? All it needs is a new tube for full 100 W power. Even have the original cover and paperwork.

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I’ll put it on the back of my reasonably priced motorcycle.

For real what do you want for it? I love playing with tubes and fixing them. Nothing like finding out there is still juice in one of them.
 
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