BWR womens winner is a guy…What a bunch of horse isshh

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rick81721 said:
Yes it is exactly No, it's not the same thing. We are in a world of hurt if people actually get offended by 3rd person using a person's preferred pronouns. Oh my God god, someone I don't know and will never know asked to have some dignity and respect, and to be referred to as "her". referred to me as "him" on some obscure website. The horror!
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fixed.
 
rick81721 said:
Yes it is exactly the same thing. We are in a world of hurt if people actually get offended by 3rd person pronouns. Oh my God, someone I don't know and will never know referred to me as "him" on some obscure website. The horror!
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You're deliberately choosing to miss the point. All people involved in this discussion, including the person who started it, understand what Austin wants to be referred to as. Use of "guy/he/him" is being done specifically to make a point. It's "let me call someone something that they don't want" and when people say "hey, could you just be nice" portray this as people being overly sensitive or easily offended.

Why is it so hard to just respect someone's wishes?
 
ebarker9 said:
You're deliberately choosing to miss the point. All people involved in this discussion, including the person who started it, understand what Austin wants to be referred to as. Use of "guy/he/him" is being done specifically to make a point. It's "let me call someone something that they don't want" and when people say "hey, could you just be nice" portray this as people being overly sensitive or easily offended.

Why is it so hard to just respect someone's wishes?
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Ok, respect the person for who they are! But it’s outrageous, disgusting and dangerous for this to continue hurting women’s sports! Race against your peers and get your ass kicked… he’s just mad he can’t compete with Men!
 
ebarker9 said:
No, but there's a pretty wide chasm between "underneath all helmets is a face and a person who deserves respect, dignity, and a safe space to ride bikes" coming from the only person who actually has any reason to be aggrieved and:



I feel like disagreeing with the current UCI rules is one thing, but suggesting that someone is "sick in the mind and ego" for competing in a class in a bicycle race that they're eligible for is another. As is continuing to refer to her as a "guy". Cool, by all means have your position about pronouns, but is it that hard to respect people enough to refer to them the way that they want? Continuing to do this in spite of a person's wishes doesn't make you some heroic truth teller, it just makes you a jerk.
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Im ok with you calling me a jerk despite my wishes, lol. And not being scared of social recourse doesn't make me a hero either.
 
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ebarker9 said:
You're deliberately choosing to miss the point. All people involved in this discussion, including the person who started it, understand what Austin wants to be referred to as. Use of "guy/he/him" is being done specifically to make a point. It's "let me call someone something that they don't want" and when people say "hey, could you just be nice" portray this as people being overly sensitive or easily offended.

Why is it so hard to just respect someone's wishes?
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Yes the point is he is a biological male unfairly competing against real women.

Here's a better example - if Pat decides to wear a wig, fake boobs and dress and changes his name to Pam, it I run into him, I will call him Pam. But when I write about it later, it would be like this:

Hey I ran into Pam at the bike store today. It looks like Pam is finally going to start riding bikes again because he was buying a saddle with a built-in dildo!

This is just another example of our crumbling society and entitled populace who crave to be offended by anything and everything. I don't care if people use 3rd person pronouns referring to me as he, she, they, it, xe, ve, etc. If this is something that really offends you, you've got problems.
 
rick81721 said:
This is just another example of our crumbling society and entitled populace who crave to be offended by anything and everything. I don't care if people use 3rd person pronouns referring to me as he, she, they, it, xe, ve, etc. If this is something that really offends you, you've got problems.
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The only way that I see a "crumbling society and entitled populace" is people doubling down on their right to be a jerk to other people rather than showing just a tiny bit of empathy. Entitled would be "I'm going to continue to call you a name that you don't want and you have to accept that".

I'd find it pretty freaking annoying if people started calling me "she/her". But it wouldn't ruin my life. If I were someone in a more vulnerable population, it could be a big deal to me. So when anyone tells me that they want to be referred to by a certain name or pronoun, I'm going to honor that, because I try to be kind to people. This is nothing more than the kind of bullying BS that people should grow out of at roughly the age of 13.
 
ebarker9 said:
The only way that I see a "crumbling society and entitled populace" is people doubling down on their right to be a jerk to other people rather than showing just a tiny bit of empathy. Entitled would be "I'm going to continue to call you a name that you don't want and you have to accept that".

I'd find it pretty freaking annoying if people started calling me "she/her". But it wouldn't ruin my life. If I were someone in a more vulnerable population, it could be a big deal to me. So when anyone tells me that they want to be referred to by a certain name or pronoun, I'm going to honor that, because I try to be kind to people. This is nothing more than the kind of bullying BS that people should grow out of at roughly the age of 13.
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Wow. So you really think some guy unfairly competing against women isn't a "jerk"? There used to be a thing called a sense of fairness. A fair person would say: "I know the rules say I can compete against women but I know I have an unfair advantage so I refuse to do so. I will compete against men." In contrast, an entitled jerk says: "I know the rules say I can compete against women and I know I have an unfair advantage but I don't care. I will compete against women and beat them and they will have to like it. And PS, everyone must refer to me as HER!"
 
rick81721 said:
Wow. So you really think some guy unfairly competing against women isn't a "jerk"? There used to be a thing called a sense of fairness. A fair person would say: "I know the rules say I can compete against women but I know I have an unfair advantage so I refuse to do so. I will compete against men." In contrast, an entitled jerk says: "I know the rules say I can compete against women and I know I have an unfair advantage but I don't care. I will compete against women and beat them and they will have to like it. And PS, everyone must refer to me as HER!"
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No, I don't think that this person is a jerk. She competed in a category that had specific rules outlining her participation. UCI rules. She complied with them. This wasn't a case of a loophole or anyone skirting a regulation. I do not think that she's a jerk for adhering to the rules that were specifically created to govern her participation in cycling events.

Again, I get that a lot of people don't agree with the rules. Great, state a case and rationale for what you disagree with and how things should be changed. I can understand the different perspectives here and I truly do not feel informed enough to form a set opinion on what I feel the rules should be.
 
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I hit post to soon, bit I agree that everyone under the helmet is a person and should be treated with respect. Rules need to be established as the grey line between black and white keeps getting wider and wider..
 
Patrick said:
World Athletics has taken the stand that any athlete who transitioned after puberty shall be excluded from competing in women's events.
Think track & field, but it has wider implications obviously.

The USATF & NCAA are currently using testosterone testing - which was already in-place.

This has some issues - but is a step towards a fair field.

Under what rules was this race run? A: UCI

UCI "allows" athletes to use their gender identity, given a 24 month test cycle of suppressed testosterone levels.
Now the weird thing is they changed the rule last year to reduce the level, and extend the time.
This is below the allowed level for birth gender females.

I suspect they will follow WA at some point.

--

on the accusation that CIS people will claim they are trans to win a race - probably not.
ya kinda get the lance armstrong treatment when someone figures it out.
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As a parent of 2 elite track and field athletes that train their asses off, this is bullshit, I'm sorry. My daughter in particular has shed a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get to where she is. Would it be right for another elite athlete who has transitioned to race against her? She would be furious, as would I. The USATF and NCAA need to pull their heads out of their asses, testosterone levels are not an accurate indicator of anything. If you went through puberty as a male, you've deposited muscle in a way that can't be walked back with all the hormone treatment in the world. Its related to hip geometry, etc., which is completely different between men and women. This is science, pure and simple.

Its a free country, and you should be able to do whatever you need to for happiness and fulfillment, as long as its not at the expense of someone else's happiness. We all can't have what we want, there are sacrifices with everything, and if you transition from male to female, one of those sacrifices is you shouldn't be competing with the biological women. Its not right, and just not fair to every biological woman who is busting their asses and making sacrifices to be the best at what they're training for.
 
ebarker9 said:
No, I don't think that this person is a jerk. She competed in a category that had specific rules outlining her participation. UCI rules. She complied with them. This wasn't a case of a loophole or anyone skirting a regulation. I do not think that she's a jerk for adhering to the rules that were specifically created to govern her participation in cycling events.

Again, I get that a lot of people don't agree with the rules. Great, state a case and rationale for what you disagree with and how things should be changed. I can understand the different perspectives here and I truly do not feel informed enough to form a set opinion on what I feel the rules should be.
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So you completely ignored the entitled unfairness. Got it. No point in continuing. Feel free to defend this entitled, unfair jerk.
 
Captain Brainstorm said:
As a parent of 2 elite track and field athletes that train their asses off, this is bullshit, I'm sorry. My daughter in particular has shed a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get to where she is. Would it be right for another elite athlete who has transitioned to race against her? She would be furious, as would I. The USATF and NCAA need to pull their heads out of their asses, testosterone levels are not an accurate indicator of anything. If you went through puberty as a male, you've deposited muscle in a way that can't be walked back with all the hormone treatment in the world. Its related to hip geometry, etc., which is completely different between men and women. This is science, pure and simple.

Its a free country, and you should be able to do whatever you need to for happiness and fulfillment, as long as its not at the expense of someone else's happiness. We all can't have what we want, there are sacrifices with everything, and if you transition from male to female, one of those sacrifices is you shouldn't be competing with the biological women. Its not right, and just not fair to every biological woman who is busting their asses and making sacrifices to be the best at what they're training for.
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Well said.
 
Captain Brainstorm said:
As a parent of 2 elite track and field athletes that train their asses off, this is bullshit, I'm sorry. My daughter in particular has shed a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get to where she is. Would it be right for another elite athlete who has transitioned to race against her? She would be furious, as would I. The USATF and NCAA need to pull their heads out of their asses, testosterone levels are not an accurate indicator of anything. If you went through puberty as a male, you've deposited muscle in a way that can't be walked back with all the hormone treatment in the world. Its related to hip geometry, etc., which is completely different between men and women. This is science, pure and simple.

Its a free country, and you should be able to do whatever you need to for happiness and fulfillment, as long as its not at the expense of someone else's happiness. We all can't have what we want, there are sacrifices with everything, and if you transition from male to female, one of those sacrifices is you shouldn't be competing with the biological women. Its not right, and just not fair to every biological woman who is busting their asses and making sacrifices to be the best at what they're training for.
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rick81721 said:
So you completely ignored the entitled unfairness. Got it. No point in continuing. Feel free to defend this entitled, unfair jerk.
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Entering an event with rules that specifically allow your participation is not entitled. Take issue with the rules, not the person who is complying with the rules.
 
ebarker9 said:
Entering an event with rules that specifically allow your participation is not entitled. Take issue with the rules, not the person who is complying with the rules.
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So you completely ignored the fundamental, biological unfairness. Feel free to keep defending this entitled, unfair jerk.
 
Captain Brainstorm said:
As a parent of 2 elite track and field athletes that train their asses off, this is bullshit, I'm sorry. My daughter in particular has shed a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get to where she is. Would it be right for another elite athlete who has transitioned to race against her? She would be furious, as would I. The USATF and NCAA need to pull their heads out of their asses, testosterone levels are not an accurate indicator of anything. If you went through puberty as a male, you've deposited muscle in a way that can't be walked back with all the hormone treatment in the world. Its related to hip geometry, etc., which is completely different between men and women. This is science, pure and simple.

Its a free country, and you should be able to do whatever you need to for happiness and fulfillment, as long as its not at the expense of someone else's happiness. We all can't have what we want, there are sacrifices with everything, and if you transition from male to female, one of those sacrifices is you shouldn't be competing with the biological women. Its not right, and just not fair to every biological woman who is busting their asses and making sacrifices to be the best at what they're training for.
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I'm officiating girls discus tomorrow, stop by and say hello.

FTR I agree with the WA policy.
There are many people trying to sort this out. It's their job. Great biological female athletes are going to leave the USA because of current policy.
This doesn't mean I'm dismissing a community of people.
 
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