Lifetime Grand Prix Video Series

[Pearl]

Man I really don't feel like arguing this point, but its not like NBA vs WNBA. They are playing on the same stage, in the same league, at the same time, riding the same course... it should be equal payout. As with any professional cycling race, the women's race is always more interesting to watch.

 

[jShort]

Lol, it was literally 1 sentence. How do you get so triggered?

Her point was that this series was invitational. A lot of the men were fighting to get in. Some of the women were blowing off some of the races and (in Sofias mind) not taking it seriously enough.

 

[jShort]

Oh and glad people will finally understand the joke now. Lol.

 

[1speed]

Man I really don't feel like arguing this point, but its not like NBA vs WNBA. They are playing on the same stage, in the same league, at the same time, riding the same course... it should be equal payout. As with any professional cycling race, the women's race is always more interesting to watch.

I agree that it's not the same - but perhaps for slightly different reasons. As you say, they're both doing the same course so the work (in the phsyics sense) is identical. But more important than that, the current source of payment isn't tied to who is choosing to watch it or ticket sales to spectators. In other words, the payouts are not a referendum on interest. The problem with pay in the WNBA vs. the NBA is that it is a referendum on interest. I think Bill Burr actually made a really good point on that - for people who are complaining that there is inequity in pay, why aren't they personally supporting it enough to change it knowing that pay is tied to public interest in that sport? The WNBA is paid less because fewer people pay to see it, which means companies needing endorsers are also not offering big contracts to athletes a large portion of their population may not have heard of. When payment is not itself a referendum on interest, I don't really see how you can justify not paying someone for the same amount of work. And I think that holds true not just in sports but also in the kind of soul-sucking crap most of us are forced to do for a living.

 

[The Kalmyk]

I think they are talking about having equal opportunities for competition.

Martin- thats where people need to speak eloquently v. Throwing hype words out there without clarity... hence my comment on two step thinking. Its become two easy to throw radom shit out there and leave the door open to pivot once faces with contradicting pov. Thats what made me throw up in my mouth. Plenty of those women would smoke me so there you go- we arent equal. But equal opportunity doe not mean equal outcome either

 

[jShort]

Martin- thats where people need to speak eloquently v. Throwing hype words out there without clarity... hence my comment on two step thinking. Its become two easy to throw radom shit out there and leave the door open to pivot once faces with contradicting pov. Thats what made me throw up in my mouth. Plenty of those women would smoke me so there you go- we arent equal. But equal opportunity doe not mean equal outcome either

Can you link and give a time in the video? I must have heard a different comment about equality in racing.

 

[The Kalmyk]

Man I really don't feel like arguing this point, but its not like NBA vs WNBA. They are playing on the same stage, in the same league, at the same time, riding the same course... it should be equal payout. As with any professional cycling race, the women's race is always more interesting to watch.

Equal opportunity does not mean equal outcome. Period.

Take men out of the picture and the money isn't there.

 

[The Kalmyk]

Can you link and give a time in the video? I must have heard a different comment about equality in racing.

12m10s episode 3.


“Seems like the guys are fighting for this real hard. I feel like if we are fighting for equality then we should should show up”

Sounds like she is hinting at “physical” output to me.

 

[jShort]

12m10s episode 3.


“Seems like the guys are fighting for this real hard. I feel like if we are fighting for equality then we should should show up”

Sounds like she is hinting at physical output to me.

Lol, it was literally 1 sentence. How do you get so triggered?

Her point was that this series was invitational. A lot of the men were fighting to get in. Some of the women were blowing off some of the races and (in Sofias mind) not taking it seriously enough.

 

[The Kalmyk]

@jShort so its equal payout as the men. Come on man. At what point do we stop folding to a social push and look the lens of reality. There are plenty of women that do a similar job as i do that would circle me ten times AND THEY SHOULD BE PAID FOR MORE THAN ME! That is not the when talking about high level pro athletes in any sport.

To answer you question- its a stupid hype word that needs more clarity. What equality exactly is she talking about Jeremy?

 

[jShort]

@jShort so its equal payout as the men. Come on man. At what point do we stop folding to a social push and look the lens of reality. There are plenty of women that do a similar job as i do that would circle me ten times AND THEY SHOULD BE PAID FOR MORE! That is not the case here at high level pro athletes.

To answer you question- its a stupid hype word that needs more clarity. What equality exactly is she talking about Jeremy?

Yes. In this context she is talking Payout. But she is arguing that the female racers were not doing their part to get that equal payout.

We’re past the argument if men and women should get equal payout. They should. Even if the men draw bigger numbers, take from the men and pay the women an equal amount. Help grow the sport. More woman on the big stage encourages more girls to get on the sport.

Lifetime Gran Prix was obviously on board with this because they split the 250k EQUALLY. This was a huge selling point of the series to begin with. That is the reality.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Hopefully this series makes bike racing in the USA great again. Big purses and good competition help.

But I think the lifetime Grand Prix lost its live coverage mid way though the series last year. I could be wrong though

I think what the USA needs is more races/less rides.Gravel seems to be picking up steam but finding real races is more difficult than finding competitive rides.

 

[The Kalmyk]

Yes. In this context she is talking Payout. But she is arguing that the female racers were not doing their part to get that equal payout.

We’re past the argument if men and women should get equal payout. They should. Even if the men draw bigger numbers, take from the men and pay the women an equal amount. Help grow the sport. More woman on the big stage encourages more girls to get on the sport.

Lifetime Gran Prix was obviously on board with this because they split the 250k EQUALLY. This was a huge selling point of the series to begin with. That is the reality.

More woman and girls riding bikes is a GREAT thing. Let me get that out there that we can see eye to eye on that.


If less women are showing support but payouts are the same then it absolutely mirrors the NBA/WBA situation BUT with equal payout. Which some, looking at that balance sheet by category would look at it as a negative. So what exactly is she fighting for. Your point is nil here.

 

[stb222]

Yes. In this context she is talking Payout. But she is arguing that the female racers were not doing their part to get that equal payout.

We’re past the argument if men and women should get equal payout. They should. Even if the men draw bigger numbers, take from the men and pay the women an equal amount. Help grow the sport. More woman on the big stage encourages more girls to get on the sport.

Lifetime Gran Prix was obviously on board with this because they split the 250k EQUALLY. This was a huge selling point of the series to begin with. That is the reality.

There is a lot of gray area here, it is not a black and white situation.

Having equal payout to men and women is a great way to grow the sport assuming the all of these people are motivated by money. In all reality, only a select few are “in the money” while everyone else is there to challenge themselves or whatever. Bike racing would have died long ago if money was the sole motivation.

So let’s segregate this to pro events only where the races, which are generally fueled by sponsors. Does equal prize purse mean that the top 5 woman are getting the same
Total Amount as the top 10 guys? Maybe the top 10-20 guys? This is purely from a number of racers perspective. Is that fair or unfair. would it make sense that 5% of the men get money and 50% of the woman? Or should it only the top 5 in each get money? In one of those situations, the top woman will Complain it isn’t equal for them.

mtbnj race promoting tried a lot of different ways to engage woman, free entries, almost guaranteed payout. Was any of that successful ? (That is a real question).

I don’t have the answers, everything everyone is saying here is correct from perspective.

 

[1speed]

If less women are showing support but payouts are the same then it absolutely mirrors the NBA/WBA situation BUT with equal payout. Which some, looking at that balance sheet by category would look at it as a negative.

But it doesn't mirror that situation because the source and arguably the purpose of the money is completely different. Those leagues rely on tickets sold (and endorsements, but endorsements are going to correlate with ticket sales since the value prop of any celebrity endorsement is consumer interest in what they do.) No one is buying tickets to watch the Lifetime Grand Prix. The money is coming from a corporation that has a vested interest in appealing to both men and women for its core competency (healthy lifestyles through their clubs and events.) So even if you dismiss the notion that they are doing the same work* and therefore deserve the same pay, there is still the notion that Lifetime pays them the same because it's in Lifetime's best interest to do so and, put simply, Lifetime's motivations are the only reason the whole thing exists in the first place. In fact, you could almost argue that while the players in the NBA and WNBA are selling the quality and competitiveness of their leagues as the product worth paying for, in the Lifetime Grand Prix, the athletes themselves aren't the ones selling product - they ARE the product representing Lifetime's core services. So looking at it that way, the payment they get isn't something the women or men so much deserve as it is the cost of presenting a product in line with the company's bottom line revenue goals. By that thought process, they have more in common with social media influencers than with NBA or WNBA athletes.

* Yes, a footnote. Because I hate the fact that I didn't clarify this earlier - they *technically* aren't doing the same work on average if you define work as I did earlier - the exact physics concept of W = F*d - because most of the men here probably weigh more than the women, so even though the "d" is the same, the "F" has to be higher for those who weigh more, but I think that's just semantics in the long run - they ride the same distance and suffer just as much. They deserve the same amounts.

 

[The Kalmyk]

But it doesn't mirror that situation because the source and arguably the purpose of the money is completely different. Those leagues rely on tickets sold (and endorsements, but endorsements are going to correlate with ticket sales since the value prop of any celebrity endorsement is consumer interest in what they do.) No one is buying tickets to watch the Lifetime Grand Prix. The money is coming from a corporation that has a vested interest in appealing to both men and women for its core competency (healthy lifestyles through their clubs and events.) So even if you dismiss the notion that they are doing the same work* and therefore deserve the same pay, there is still the notion that Lifetime pays them the same because it's in Lifetime's best interest to do so and, put simply, Lifetime's motivations are the only reason the whole thing exists in the first place. In fact, you could almost argue that while the players in the NBA and WNBA are selling the quality and competitiveness of their leagues as the product worth paying for, in the Lifetime Grand Prix, the athletes themselves aren't the ones selling product - they ARE the product representing Lifetime's core services. So looking at it that way, the payment they get isn't something the women or men so much deserve as it is the cost of presenting a product in line with the company's bottom line revenue goals. By that thought process, they have more in common with social media influencers than with NBA or WNBA athletes.

* Yes, a footnote. Because I hate the fact that I didn't clarify this earlier - they *technically* aren't doing the same work on average if you define work as I did earlier - the exact physics concept of W = F*d - because most of the men here probably weigh more than the women, so even though the "d" is the same, the "F" has to be higher for those who weigh more, but I think that's just semantics in the long run - they ride the same distance and suffer just as much. They deserve the same amounts.

I can see where you are coming from with ticket sales and such. Let’s follow this corporate money. I dont know the corporation you mention but i will assume they have vested interest around bikes? Men participate at the pro, amateur and recreational level much more than woman. So inherently as a category, women are the smaller group user. Take men out of the picture and the money isnt there. So that is where the two arguments union. You have a user group with less skin in the game collecting cash rewards equal to group that is driving the business. Id rather have story of growth. Just leveling up a subset because of possible social pressure is essentially sending the message that “we have to do it” or “its the right thing to do”. Id drop money down that the C level understands this and has had this conversation in closed doors.

If we are talking equality then the WNBA women would have to pay to play.

 

[Cassinonorth]

For funsies I checked instagram followers for the top 5 men and women:

1. Swenson- 33k
2. Vermeulen- 17k
3. Finsterwald- 15k
4. Paton - 12k
5. Stetina- 40k

Women:

1. Smith- 20k
2. Gomez Villafane- 35k
3. Sturm- 36k
4. Grant - 8k
5. Newsom- 5k

And for reference, Kate Courtney has 546k followers.

 

[1speed]

I can see where you are coming from with ticket sales and such. Let’s follow this corporate money. I dont know the corporation you mention but i will assume they have vested interest around bikes? Men participate at the pro, amateur and recreational level much more than woman. So inherently as a category, women are the smaller group user. Take men out of the picture and the money isnt there. So that is where the two arguments union. You have a user group with less skin in the game collecting cash rewards equal to group that is driving the business. Id rather have story of growth. Just leveling up a subset because of possible social pressure is essentially sending the message that “we have to do it” or “its the right thing to do”. Id drop money down that the C level understands this and has had this conversation in closed doors.

If we are talking equality then the WNBA women would have to pay to play.

The corporation is Lifetime itself. They are a health and fitness "lifestyle" corporation - they operate a chain of fitness centers, have an events business in which they have events for cycling, running and triathlon, run multiple indoor and outdoor helathy lifestyle programs for different age groups, and even have an app to help people manage al their stuff - kind of a one-stop-shop for all avenues of fitness. As such, they've kind of positioned themselves as a competitor to everything from classic gyms like Gold's Gym to online fitness programmers like Peloton to event organizers nationwide to fitness techjnology companies.

I never got a chance to do Leadville because I broke my arm on my last training ride before flying out there in 2016 after I qualified for it in 2015 at Wilmington Whiteface. And I can tell you they are SERIOUS about their events being perceived as participant friendly. Everyone involved is really falling all over the participants to make sure they have a fun time and feel like they accomplished something big just by finishing. When I did Wilmington Whiteface, I drove up there alone and only saw one other person I knew the whole weekend (a local guy I know here.) But when I came across the finish line, the announcer called my name and a bunch of people started cheering. I was like "WTF?" Turns out they were all LIfetime employees and they did that for every single person that crossed the line - from the earliest winners to the last finishers. All day long. So it doesn't surprise me that they'd have a policy in place where they insist on equal pay for men and women. It's their brand.

 

[1speed]

For funsies I checked instagram followers for the top 5 men and women:

1. Swenson- 33k
2. Vermeulen- 17k
3. Finsterwald- 15k
4. Paton - 12k
5. Stetina- 40k

Women:

1. Smith- 20k
2. Gomez Villafane- 35k
3. Sturm- 36k
4. Grant - 8k
5. Newsom- 5k

And for reference, Kate Courtney has 546k followers.

I think Vermeulen's dog probably has more followers than him. But with these guys since so much of what they do is visual, they may have a greater social media presence on YouTube or Tik Tok.

 

[jShort]

You guys should start a different thread on why women don’t deserve equal payouts in races. If that’s what you believe

Stop hiding in here.