Glancing Aft
Active Member
Just wondering if any Jerseyites out there have had any issues with cracked chain stays on Niner Air 9 Carbon? If so how was your experience with frame warranty/crash replacement with Niner. Thanks!
Cracked Niner Air 9 Carbon
- Thread starter Glancing Aft
- Start date
I've had great warranty service with their scandium frames... no reason to think that they'd be any different about the carbon frames.
Glancing Aft
Active Member
I was descending a hill and had a rock get spit up and hit my chainstay non-drivetrain side and formed a crack...
I had great customer services with a scandium frame but it seems like a different ballgame for their carbon frames. Niner's warranty is written like a joke, with lots of marketing fluff to make it seem like you're buying into an amazing warranty. In this situation Niner is stating that this frame failure is a crash and not due to design, material, or construction failure and would fall under a crash replacement (50% of frame value + whatever dealer markup). However the way their warranty reads since this frame did fail under normal use and not what the warranty states as a crash replacement (i.e. going off of jumps, driving your bike into your garage, ect.), I have been arguing that it should be a full warranty replacement and not a crash replacement.
Myself with the help of my LBS have been negotiating with them and we hopefully will be coming to an agreement soon. They also have said that they will consider rewrighting their warranty for their carbon frames to be more specific (which doesn't really help me at this point). Warranty is page 11 of this for anyone interested,
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ninerbikes.com%2Fdownloadfly.aspx%3Fdownload%3Ddownloads%2FNIN_OWNERS_UNIVERS.pdf&ei=_jbyTsXYB6bX0QHWsfXNAg&usg=AFQjCNGQDkfN-HyAULVEm6B_7uxrQGiF3w&sig2=BO5v7pzHzsxr2O-2gNsV-Q
I was just wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences with them.
On the replacement (assuming its carbon), I'd coat the bottom of the frame with some frame tape protection stuff. Crank skins sells it. It probably prevented me from cracking even more frames than I did with it.
Riding at CR all the time, I have fist sized rocks spit up and smack the bike all the time.
Good luck with the warranty
Riding at CR all the time, I have fist sized rocks spit up and smack the bike all the time.
Good luck with the warranty
lots of wood knocking is happening over here right now. Definitely get some clear tape, "helicopter" tape or some of that shelter film stuff and cover up the bottoms of the stays and the inside where something can get lodged between the cassette or rotor. That was the first thing I did to mine before I built it.
Definitely let us know what they do for you. We have sold a handful but never had to warranty any.
Definitely let us know what they do for you. We have sold a handful but never had to warranty any.
This is a tough call. Clearly this is not due to poor manufacturing. They don't build bikes of any material such that you can toss big rocks at them. (Ti maybe?)
Anyway your situation sucks and I feel for you, but consider if it were a car or a motorcycle. In either case the manufacturer would not be held responsible for an impact w/ a rock.
Why then should bike builders be held to a higher level of accountability??
The cost of a high end frame alone should not justify damage from acts of nature or random impacts. or should it??
This may in fact be covered by homeowners or renters insurance. Especially if you have a rider for your bike.
Anyway your situation sucks and I feel for you, but consider if it were a car or a motorcycle. In either case the manufacturer would not be held responsible for an impact w/ a rock.
Why then should bike builders be held to a higher level of accountability??
The cost of a high end frame alone should not justify damage from acts of nature or random impacts. or should it??
This may in fact be covered by homeowners or renters insurance. Especially if you have a rider for your bike.
Glancing Aft
Active Member
I think you started to answer your own question there. Unlike the bike industry, the auto industry is intertwined with a multi-billion-dollar auto insurance industry. There is nothing really out there to protect the consumer in the bike industry should stuff break. When a consumer buys a bike they are going off of good faith that the bike was designed/built properly and that the manufacture will stand behind the warranty that they offer.
In my case I do no think it was a manufacture defect, but I do think there is a good chance it was a design defect. Niner has stated that if this crack was formed by a loose rock it would most likely have happened with any frame of any material. I think from an engineering standpoint it is pretty naive of them to say that two frames constructed of different materials with different geometry's have the same impact characteristics. And I asked to see their Finite Element Analysis model proving this statement, which I knew they wouldn't release to me.
Regardless though their main fault is in the way their warranty reads. My bike broke under normal riding conditions and should be replaced as such.
As far as protection under the frame it is certainly something I will look into should I decide to go with another Niner. I do think Felt has the best solution to this with the burly pieces of Kevlar they mount to the downtube of their carbon bikes.
I'll keep you guys posted as to how it turns out...
rlb
Well-Known Member
I'm trying to stay objective because I certainly would be upset if I had a broken frame and I had to eat. But I'll point out that auto insurance is mandatory in most states. Many people wouldn't buy it if they didn't have to. And furthermore you can add your bike to an insurance policy so you can cover it in a similar way. If a rock cracks windshield on your car the manufacturer doesn't eat it, even though you could claim a similar design flaw. Insurance is the one who covers it.
The claims that "As the warranty reads...." is why we have warranties that read as they do, and why the lawyers get rich.
You're not going to like what I have to say about this...
Rocks get spit up all the time, no matter what bike you're riding. Sticks get sucked into the wheel all the time, no matter what bike you're riding. As a result, frames can get damaged or even broken. Its a risk we run every time we mount up and pedal down the trail. The manufacturer of your frame cannot possibly be held responsible for the condition of the trails on which you ride. They've got no liability here whatsoever. Additionally, they can see that there's an impact on the frame which casued a crack... they can't be expected to take the customer's word for it that they were JRA and its not a crash. In my opinion, your issue has nothing to do with warranty service and a crash replacement is a pretty good deal and you should run with it... ya gotta pay to play and unfortunately, sometimes it hurts.
Your issue is the reason why I will not purchase a carbon MTB frame.
I disagree... You cannot expect a bicycle manufacturer to design their frames to withstand extraordinary circumstances, such as a large rock impacting a chainstay. There are frames that are designed to withstand pretty much everthing you could dish out... they're the DH/DS frames that weigh 10 pounds or the wal mart frames that weigh 20 pounds.
I agree with the other comment about insurance... you should look into your homeowners/renters policy and see if it might be covered. If that works, you could play the system a bit... get the insurance money and then get the crash replacement frame... it could work out for you.
To blame Niner, though for the rock you kicked up is misguided in my opinion. You're in a ishtty situation and I feel for you too, but it's not Niner's fault.
Glancing Aft
Active Member
@ BShow, I'm not trying to get confrontational (I know tone is always lost on the internet), but you did contradicted yourself a bit there. You said "happens all the time" and "extraordinary circumstance". And that's the problem, what really defines the difference? Virtually every hill I descend kicks up rocks. So when I go out for my every day rides am I using my bike for it's unintended purpose?
I also don't think they are giving me a good deal. The only reason I paid the Niner premium was for their 5 year warranty, and their marketing hype over how indestructible their carbon is. For the same price as their crash replacement I can get a frame from one of their competitors (mainly a Jamis D29) who appears (from watching teammates ride them) to have designed a frame to withstand the rigors of normal trail use...
But who knows, like you perhaps carbon is not what I should be on. I can't afford to drop a grand on a new frame every six months. And when I'm racing I need to be consumed with the moment and not worrying about if every decision is going to cost me a lot of money...
I also don't think they are giving me a good deal. The only reason I paid the Niner premium was for their 5 year warranty, and their marketing hype over how indestructible their carbon is. For the same price as their crash replacement I can get a frame from one of their competitors (mainly a Jamis D29) who appears (from watching teammates ride them) to have designed a frame to withstand the rigors of normal trail use...
But who knows, like you perhaps carbon is not what I should be on. I can't afford to drop a grand on a new frame every six months. And when I'm racing I need to be consumed with the moment and not worrying about if every decision is going to cost me a lot of money...
Last edited:
No, I know... im not being confrontational either, so apologies if that's the tone I'm giving off.
Sucking sticks and kicking up rocks happens all the time, yes. However this is an acute impact that cannot realistically be compensated for in the design of a frame. To account for sucked sticks, you'd have to significantly reinforce the whole rear triangle and seat tube. To account for kicked up rocks and sticks, you'd have to significantly reinforce the front triangle. For example, I have a ding on my top tube from a rock that kicked forward and up, then came down and bounced of the TT towards my crotch... would this have cracked a carbon frame? Maybe.
My point is, you cannot possibly design a race frame to withstand every type of trail debris scenario.
And a whole other argument is; how does niner know that you were JRA kicking up rocks? How do they know that you didnt actually crash and just blame it on a rock? They've gotta draw a line somewhere and while I didnt read the warranty policy, I can't imagine that they've stated their frames are indestructible and withstand all types of impacts.
Its an unfortunate situation for sure, but I just don't understand how you can twist it around and blame any manufacturer for the rock you kicked up on the trail.
a.s.
Mr. Chainring
I'm sorry but who cracks a frame just from kicking a rock into their chainstay? That's a bunch of bullsh*t in my opinion. I must do it a dozen times a season on my alloy frame and have never cracked the chainstay. If your carbon Niner cracked then it's either...
If you're going to pay top dollar for a piece of equipment, it should be able to withstand more than what is expected from similar equipment of a lower (and less exotic) material- and price. I'm not saying your frame should be bombproof just 'cause it cost several grand but it certainly should be able to withstand a rock being kicked up into the chainstay. It's a pretty common occurrence in mountain biking and thus your issue should be considered under "normal riding use."
As for changing the wording of their warranty literature ...too late! They should honor what it says now and give you full warranty replacement at $0 cost. And then go back to the drawing board and redesign the frame (if that is in fact the issue, which I'm sure it is since they want to change their warranty.)
+1 ...why I would never buy a carbon bike.
- poor frame design / not enough carbon layers on a common impact area
- a defect in that frame, whether that means a manufacturing mistake or preexisting crack caused during shipping and handling.
If you're going to pay top dollar for a piece of equipment, it should be able to withstand more than what is expected from similar equipment of a lower (and less exotic) material- and price. I'm not saying your frame should be bombproof just 'cause it cost several grand but it certainly should be able to withstand a rock being kicked up into the chainstay. It's a pretty common occurrence in mountain biking and thus your issue should be considered under "normal riding use."
As for changing the wording of their warranty literature ...too late! They should honor what it says now and give you full warranty replacement at $0 cost. And then go back to the drawing board and redesign the frame (if that is in fact the issue, which I'm sure it is since they want to change their warranty.)
+1 ...why I would never buy a carbon bike.
ChrisRU
Well-Known Member
People who ride carbon frames
When you buy a carbon mountain bike, you buy it with the expectation that it will break at some point. If it doesn't, you got lucky.a.s. - the logic in your post completely ignores what many carbon frames are designed for. They are superlight race frames. People don't buy them for extra reinforcement in critical areas (extra weight), they buy them to save weight.
Glancing aft, sorry to hear that your bike broke, but seems like a crash replacement is the correct remedy here.
People who ride carbon frames
a.s. - the logic in your post completely ignores what many carbon frames are designed for. They are superlight race frames. People don't buy them for extra reinforcement in critical areas (extra weight), they buy them to save weight.
a.s. to add to this is NJ and northeast in particular are not the typical areas manufactures design these for. in fact if they were smart they would throw a North East rocks cluase in their.
not defending because Plastic and NJ Mtbing not perfect together though I will prolly take a shot a cheapo carbon for the hell of it...
a.s.
Mr. Chainring
Really? Maybe if you're a sponsored pro. What ever happened to light-strong-cheep, pick two?
Back in 1994 when I was riding a Mongoose Iboc Team (one of the first mass produced carbon bikes) I broke the chainstay 3 times. Luckily for me they replaced the frame for free each time. I didn't wait for a 4th break and ended up selling the last replacement frame. Needless to say Mongoose stopped making carbon fiber frames.
I would have expected technology to have caught up with the sport by now. At least this is what manufacturers are claiming. They should put their money where their mouth is or not offer any warranty at all. That way the buyer clearly knows what they're getting into.
Sucks anyway you look at.
man, that sucks will. best of luck with it.
by the way, the *light, strong, cheap* argument only applies when you're supposed to sacrifice something. logic dictates that if it's expensive (and as frames go, carbon niners aren't on the low end of the spectrum) the other two should be covered off, no?
personally i'll stick with steel...until i'm wealthy, 150lbs or get custom ti.
by the way, the *light, strong, cheap* argument only applies when you're supposed to sacrifice something. logic dictates that if it's expensive (and as frames go, carbon niners aren't on the low end of the spectrum) the other two should be covered off, no?
personally i'll stick with steel...until i'm wealthy, 150lbs or get custom ti.