EBikes.. How much power and travel?

[jdog]

I would like to start a discussion regarding the current trajectory of e-bike power levels. We are witnessing a power "arms race" that appears to be exceeding the limits of existing components; many drivetrains were simply not designed to handle these high outputs. Furthermore, in New Jersey, we are facing potential legislation that may impose insurance and registration costs on e-bike riders as a direct result of these trends.

Recent reviews of the DJI system suggest that while the power is impressive, it may be unnecessary for most riders. Industry figures like Hans Rey and Jeff Kendall-Weed have expressed that while these high numbers are exciting, they pose a significant danger to trail access and could increase user conflict.

For the e-bike riders in this group: are you looking for more power, a longer range, or a more analog-style experience with a subtle assist?

Having spent significant time on off-road motorcycles, I feel that if I wanted that level of power, I would ride a motorcycle. I am certainly not anti-e-bike—I am currently on my seventh or eighth one—but I have been very satisfied with the power delivery of the Race CX drive unit and do not feel the need for more. While we have yet to sell a DJI-equipped bike at our location, I understand they are selling well in other markets.

I am interested in your perspective on where the industry is headed.

Please let me know if there are responses missing from the poll that you might like to add.

 

[tonyride]

More power doesn't interest me because it is not useful to me. Lighter weight, smaller motor, decent range, and thinner down tube (stealthy) interests me the most. I'm not against high powered ebikes for those who want it, I just wish manufactures would also consider a version that's not so aggressive but still take advantage of improving battery and motor technologies to make a "normal" powered ebike lighter with a smaller motor that still deliver decent range (~600 WHr battery). Not everyone wants to go on epic rides but offer range extenders for those who do. Not every ride is an epic ride for those who do it so why carry around all that weight all the time even for non-epic rides? Just my thoughts.

 

[JPark]

I would rather see DJI or another company take the efficiency of the Avinox system and make a 100Nm bike with a lighter motor and smaller battery to put it closer to the weight of a SL bike.

From what I've read the DJI system allows you to climb steep hills at the maximum speed of 20mph with little effort.
Personally, I'm okay having to exert myself. I just want to move faster when I exert myself which is why I ebike and keep the acoustic bike for chairlift parks.

I have a shimano ep8 motor. At 85Nm it's plenty of power MOST of the time. The only time I really crave more power is on some of those trails where you can hit jumps and berms on the climbs if I can get enough speed.



As far as travel goes, I max it out. Pedaling efficiency isn't really an issue with ebikes so why not get the most suspension? We live in an extremely rocky area so it's nice to have a lot of squish.

 

[UtahJoe]

This is merica 101.....if something has a rating of power, we will want it to have X+1 rating of power in short order. Everything has a power rating, even your garage door opener....the marketing is undefeated. It doesnt matter if it ruins the machine or experience, as long as it has more power. We have DESTROYED the diesel pickup truck market with horsepower wars....engine reliability has taken a crap bc of the quest for better 0-60 times combined with gas mileage......More power, accelerate faster...everything else is secondary.

With regards to my personal ebike....I feel like its plenty powerful enough 0-10mph....there are times when I would like it if it would move faster from say 10-17mph....in that range, im more powerful on my analog bike. But would I want double the power of the ep8 I have...then destroy my drivetrain constantly? no thanks.

 

[scott62]

I want long travel full power e bikes. Going over 100nm is just going to kill your drive train faster than you ever thought possible. My 90nm drive unit eats a chain every 500 miles. Reliable and repairable are also very important to me. E bikes also need bash guards that are not junk plastic because hoping logs with a 50+ pound bike is not always possible.

 

[Santapez]

We are witnessing a power "arms race" that appears to be exceeding the limits of existing components; many drivetrains were simply not designed to handle these high outputs. Furthermore, in New Jersey, we are facing potential legislation that may impose insurance and registration costs on e-bike riders as a direct result of these trends.

I'm wondering if we'll see E-bike specific drivetrains come out. There's a lot of discussion that Transmission is designed around E-bikes which is why there's a lot of weight in the components compared to earlier series.

While there's Linkglide which seems to be more durable, to me it makes sense for entirely different e-bike specific drivetrains especially as the power goes up.

I'm sure this is hampered by people wanting lighter components.

 

[mtn]

I’d be ok if my shimano ep8 didn’t have a boost mode. Seems pointless to me. Not looking to go for crazy long rides, just looking to reduce joint and muscle fatigue.

 

[Jeremy]

I'm sure this is hampered by people wanting lighter components

Is this really a deciding factor with e-bikes? To your point… If I have a 50lb ebike with a normal SRAM Transmission drivetrain, I would be totally fine with a 52lb ebike and a much more robust drivetrain that can withstand the higher power.

 

[Santapez]

Is this really a deciding factor with e-bikes? To your point… If I have a 50lb ebike with a normal SRAM Transmission drivetrain, I would be totally fine with a 52lb ebike and a much more robust drivetrain that can withstand the higher power.

I agree with you and that's how I'd go about it. But we also know how much people care about weight on their bikes even if it's not noticeable.

Right now as you go up the drivetrain ladder you'll get more durability but mostly less weight as you spend more $$ on a regular bike. When you are buying a $6k level bike vs $4k of the same level you're looking for less weight in the drivetrain components.

I'm sure people don't want to go from Deore to XTR level E-bike but end up with Linkglide which is seen as low-end even though it makes sense, many want fancy components.

 

[Ian F]

I think it depends on what a rider needs/wants their bike to be to them. In a way, not a lot different than choosing a normal bike. I have two full squish bikes - a light XC/trail bike and my more gravity focused enduro bike. The latter weighs more than the trail bike and generally has more burly parts. Heavier tires, slightly heavier wheels, heavier fork and rear shock, etc.

Personally, as I get older and more risk-averse, I am coming to the realization that I don't really need a really burly, gravity-oriented bike. I just don't have it in me to try going that fast on descents anymore. My ego wants a long travel bike but I'm coming to realize a bike that capable will pretty much never get used to it's full potential with me riding it. While I can generally man-handle my 54 lbs. Heckler, it's not a lot of fun in doing so and I wonder if I would be better served by a lighter bike with less travel. Similar to how most of my trail riding is done on my Spot rather than the Megatower. Even when I ride at parks where I could use the Megatower on some of the descents, the Spot is better everywhere else so I am willing to dial back on the descents in order to have a more enjoyable ride overall.

If you want a single bike to do everything, it's going to be a compromise in some way. This goes for e-bikes as well as regular bikes.

I'm starting to look at a bike like the Orbea Rise SL with the smaller battery and the range extender. Supposedly sub-40 lbs. (w/o the extender) which sounds like it would work well for a lot of the riding I do. For example, the last two rides I've done on the Heckler added up to 12.8 miles w/ ~1800' of climbing and I used 1/5 of the battery charge. This basically means I'm hauling around a lot of battery capacity that rarely gets used.

I've heard Giant is working on a new solid state battery tech that is supposed to be even lighter and more power dense than current battery tech. It will be interesting to see if that goes anywhere in the next year or two.

 

[JPark]

I agree with you and that's how I'd go about it. But we also know how much people care about weight on their bikes even if it's not noticeable.

Right now as you go up the drivetrain ladder you'll get more durability but mostly less weight as you spend more $$ on a regular bike. When you are buying a $6k level bike vs $4k of the same level you're looking for less weight in the drivetrain components.

I'm sure people don't want to go from Deore to XTR level E-bike but end up with Linkglide which is seen as low-end even though it makes sense, many want fancy components.

I think it's been stated before that most e-bikes would be fine with a wide ratio 9 or 10 speed cassette. Maybe even less. The chain and gears can be a little beefier, but less gears keep the weight down. But I guess the mindset for most people is more gears=better.

 

[tonyride]

I think it's been stated before that most e-bikes would be fine with a wide ratio 9 or 10 speed cassette. Maybe even less. The chain and gears can be a little beefier, but less gears keep the weight down. But I guess the mindset for most people is more gears=better.

I totally agree that if and when they come out with an ebike specific drive train I think an 8-speed system is more than adequate. With fewer speeds the chain, cassette, and chain ring can be much beefier than the current 12-speed system. The only reason it went up to 12 speeds is to gain as much mechanical advantage as possible. Now the motor is your mechanical advantage.

 

[SmooveP]

I'm wondering if we'll see E-bike specific drivetrains come out. There's a lot of discussion that Transmission is designed around E-bikes which is why there's a lot of weight in the components compared to earlier series.

While there's Linkglide which seems to be more durable, to me it makes sense for entirely different e-bike specific drivetrains especially as the power goes up.

I'm sure this is hampered by people wanting lighter components.

You'd think the billion dollar bike companies would've thought of this by now. Especially Shimano, since they make both motors and components. Shimano and Bosch have been doing ebike motors for about 15 years now.

On a separate thought, do ebikes really need gears and derailleurs? EV's don't usually have transmissions.

 

[Santapez]

You'd think the billion dollar bike companies would've thought of this by now. Especially Shimano, since they make both motors and components. Shimano and Bosch have been doing ebike motors for about 15 years now.

On a separate thought, do ebikes really need gears and derailleurs? EV's don't usually have transmissions.

Shimano came out with LinkGlide. SRAM has definitely put thought into e-bikes with Transmission. They're definitely not ignoring it, it's just more of what companies are specifying on the OEM builds doesn't seem great for longevity. What we need is the SRAM marketing division to make 10-speed steel E-bike specific drivetrains that cost 1.5x what they currently sell so that people want them?

EV's are direct drive. E-bikes are "assist". It's more like a hybrid than EV.

 

[SmooveP]

EV's are direct drive. E-bikes are "assist". It's more like a hybrid than EV.

Seems like it would be technically feasible to do a singlespeed. Motor could provide appropriate amount of assist to make up for the lack of gears. More demand on motor and affects range, I'm sure. What about a small 3 or 4 speed gearbox integrated with the motor?

 

[tonyride]

Seems like it would be technically feasible to do a singlespeed. Motor could provide appropriate amount of assist to make up for the lack of gears. More demand on motor and affects range, I'm sure. What about a small 3 or 4 speed gearbox integrated with the motor?

What you're suggesting is a single speed with motor assist. So when you're speeding down a flat straightaway you'll be pedaling a mile a minute without a high gear. Then you're talking about a powered pinion gear box. I believe Pinion, the company, has one. Apparently not ready for prime time yet because I haven't seen it on the market.

 

[Norm]

Everything has a power rating, even your garage door opener.

My garage door opener can kick your garage door opener's ass.

 

[SmooveP]

What you're suggesting is a single speed with motor assist. So when you're speeding down a flat straightaway you'll be pedaling a mile a minute without a high gear. Then you're talking about a powered pinion gear box. I believe Pinion, the company, has one. Apparently not ready for prime time yet because I haven't seen it on the market.

I'm guessing current Pinion might not be up to handling the added torque any better than a derailleur drivetrain.

 

[Ian F]

EV motors aren't as RPM limited as an e-bike motor. And e-bike motor is essentially restricted to the RPM range a rider can pedal at. An e-bike motor that isn't tied to the rider input isn't an e-bike anymore - it's an e-moto.

Nicolai bikes sells/sold a Pinion gearbox e-bike, although it seems production was limited and only sold in Europe. Some of the initial videos I saw about it were promising, but it does seem there have been problems. I can imagine many of the issues are similar to standard e-bike motors but multiplied by the number of gears. My WAG is they ran into issues making the gears strong enough without excessive noise and drag. Anyone familiar with performance cars knows about straight-cut gears. Strong and light (because the assembly doesn't need to deal with the same side loads as constant-mesh helical gears), but incredibly loud. No problem in a race car where the sound of straight cut gears is a calling card. Not acceptable to most drivers in a street car. Similar issues for a gearbox e-motor.

 

[Bike N Gear]

I agree with you and that's how I'd go about it. But we also know how much people care about weight on their bikes even if it's not noticeable.

I'm a totally reformed weight weenie thanks to e-bikes. My bikes used to be as light as possible for their given use. Once my e-mtb's were in the 50lb. range I've never weighed one again or thought about making them lighter. DH tires, coil spring shocks, inserts all make my ride better for me as I like a plush, smooth ride more and more as I age. I used to spend stupid money to save grams. Now, unless something was 10 pounds lighter I doubt I'd even consider making a change for weight alone.