General Trail building and maintenance information

pixychick

pixychick

JORBA: Ringwood
JORBA.ORG
I will post this here because this post is not Ringwood only. Perhaps it could go under it's own sub forum section in the future. The more education, the better. I hope some JORBA folk can chip in with their points of view.

All year I have noticed that someone is lining the trails with sticks in Ringwood, Sterling and Wawayanda. It may be happening other places too. I wanted to let people know from a trail builders point of view, This is NOT cool. I have no idea if it is strava nazis, or some other obsession, but creating curbs along the trail can have negative affects on trail sustainability. Logs on the lower side of the trail will trap leaves and create a damn, as well as create excessive organic matter on both sides of the trail. Not to mention it looks like shit from the opinion of a trail builder. If people do not stay on a trail it may not be the fault of the user, it may be poor trail design or Strava itself. I urge those with this obsession to reach out to the trail stewards and ask to get involved. The reward of being involved can outweigh and last forever over any KOM.

In addition to the sticks, someone sabotaged technical features and tried to block alternate lines in Ringwood the day after the fest. Some of these lines were rogue and some created by us with permission. We have no idea who would feel this is necessary, but it is sad that we can not all use the park and let others enjoy in their own way as well. If it is an uninformed biker that is blocking sections, I would encourage these people to once again reach out to the trail steward for information before acting. Most wide trails are wide because of poor design or way too much volume. We are working our asses off at JORBA trying to create more trail opprtunities for mountain bikers so that trails are not overused. When we close a feature, it is usually at park request and we will block or post a park sign before the feature to avoid anyone from getting hurt trying to ride a feature, .....not on the landing. There is a clear line between sabotage and closure. All this nonsense is NOT cool.
 
pixychick said:
All year I have noticed that someone is lining the trails with sticks in Ringwood, Sterling and Wawayanda
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We have the same thing that goes on in Monmouth County Parks.

A trail user was lining the out-slope of trails with rock, he thought he was "helping". Fortunately I met up with this person, who did not mean harm, he was just uniformed. After a discussion he became informed about out-slope drainage.

Unfortunately there are a lot of uninformed trail users who line trails with rocks and sticks, thinking they are helping...and it makes them feel good doing it. This is frustrating.

In my experience 98% of mtbers stay on the trail. There are those who do what they want. Opening up old lines, rogue-ing new lines, building jumps non-discretely... These actions bring down the credibility of 98% of the mtb community. Sadly the minority don't care, they do what they want.

Park managers and other trail users see rogue lines going in, they may be built when no one is around but it comes back to the mtbers, it effects all of us.

The best we can do as a trail user group is support Jorba, volunteer for TM at your local park and be responsible trail users. Doing so helps offset the actions of a minority who behave badly.
 
I noticed this at Waywayanda, my home park, as well. I usually just toss them back into the surrounding woods if I see it. Not sure who's doing it, but they are totally misguided for sure. Its like they need guardrails or something so they can follow the trail, when all they really need to do is raise their head up from their feet, and follow the markers on the trees. I also wonder if some of it has to do with these "adventure races" like the Ragnar they just had at Wayway, trying to make it easier for folks to follow the course. Maybe not the organizers themselves, but competetors pre running the course, thinking they are making it easier to stay on track. Totally agree with @pooriggy 's sentiment though. You can get through to about 5% of the 15 that aren't already following the rules with attempts at educating them on proper trail building, and maintenance techniques. They rest, unfortunately, just do whatever the hell they want.
 
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Also wondering if perhaps holding some sort of trail maintenance primer at JORBA FEST, or Cranks, might not be such a bad idea. I know it might seem to be preaching to the choir, but these events do seem to draw in some newer, more casual riders , who might get something out of it, and I think there is a sizable amount of veteran riders who know a lot less about trail building and maintenance than they think they do, myself included.
 
I'm guessing these "trail-curbers" are the same JOs who pile up 2"dia. rotten twigs to form a ramp up to an 8" log over they can't hop.
Perfect fodder to rip your derailleur off, and/or take out a few spokes, unless you air it completely. W. T. F.

I pull all dat ish out and toss it AFAP off trail.
 
I think maybe this thread shouldn’t devolve into an anger outlet against anyone they might not agree with.

People aren’t doing this for a negative reason. They simply don’t know any better. Sometimes shit falls on the trails and just gets kicked to the side.

Lighten up, Francis.
 
Norm said:
I think maybe this thread shouldn’t devolve into an anger outlet against anyone they might not agree with.

People aren’t doing this for a negative reason. They simply don’t know any better. Sometimes shit falls on the trails and just gets kicked to the side.

Lighten up, Francis.
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Well, yeah, good intention and all…sure enough anger most likely doesn’t result in much positive outcome. I haven’t seen the damage reported by @pixychick , but I do know how much time and effort she puts in building those trails with Art and can imagine the frustration of seeing them being compromised by some ‘I know better’ that has nothing better to do. I do think that some trail maintenance principles could be integrated in rides during more official events or whenever newer mtbers are involved (Crancks, MRBNJFest, JORBAFest), maybe just taking the chance to explain what is a bench cut or why the sticks along the trail outer edge are not a good idea…I don’t think it’s very common for people to show interest in trail maintenance unless somehow introduced to it.
 
serviceguy said:
don’t think it’s very common for people to show interest in trail maintenance
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I agree with this.

When I'm on a group ride I will point out trail building techniques when appropriate, however I think most people just want to ride and have fun conversation on group rides.

If we had any kind of formal trail talk ride scheduled I don't think there would be much interest.

I think if we as a user group encouraged mtbers to get out a few times of year to volunteer on their local trails it would help with the education process and tighten up the community. But easier said then done.

Volunteers for anything these days are scarce. That's why I really appreciate the few like yourself who do the majority.

Cheers
 
I always take time to block up switchback (or similar) shortcuts with rocks, logs, branches. What's crazy is that people remove them in the week that it might take me to get back there. I remember lining my own trails with sticks when there wasn't an obvious trail when I was younger. Seems some education is necessary.
 
mtn said:
I always take time to block up switchback (or similar) shortcuts with rocks, logs, branches. What's crazy is that people remove them in the week that it might take me to get back there. I remember lining my own trails with sticks when there wasn't an obvious trail when I was younger. Seems some education is necessary.
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Many hikers don't want (or need) switchbacks.
Our side-hill, bench cut climbs at the Sourlands have been shortcut to the point that some of them are marked -
cause the last people in didn't know the "correct" line as we built it.
(ha - i know some off-trail stuff to cut short what they put in to cut things short!)
 
Patrick said:
Many hikers don't want (or need) switchbacks.
Our side-hill, bench cut climbs at the Sourlands have been shortcut to the point that some of them are marked -
cause the last people in didn't know the "correct" line as we built it.
(ha - i know some off-trail stuff to cut short what they put in to cut things short!)
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I guess it depends on location too. Not talking state or county parks here. Like you'll get fined a minimum of $50 for cutting in a trail.
 
mtn said:
I always take time to block up switchback (or similar) shortcuts with rocks, logs, branches. What's crazy is that people remove them in the week that it might take me to get back there. I remember lining my own trails with sticks when there wasn't an obvious trail when I was younger. Seems some education is necessary.
Click to expand...

See, I don't think this is a problem. Sticks outlining a trail that is hard to follow. I think there is a misconception that trail building is a "set & forget" thing. It's not.

In the above scenario, lining the trails with sticks may help define where it is. As the trail beds in, these sticks can & should be removed. As someone who often works at a park (CR) where the trails end up 3-people wide, I'm not going to come down too harshly on anyone trying to focus that widening.

Trail building is an iterative process. No trail can be built perfectly the first time. We've been in East Burke when we've seen them build a whole trail segment, only to see it totally trashed 2 days later. Granted this only happened once, but even the best trail builders in the world need to fix stuff up, and scrap stuff that doesn't work.
 
Frank said:
Then join in on a tm session near you, we don’t bit……hard. But seriously, we welcome folk with all sorts of trail building experience, even if you know nothing, we are very happy to educate.
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Trail work, design and styles have changed a lot over the years. Heck in the last year working at Hartshorne I have learned a ton! Also our trail building style has changed to fit the needs of the trail. Last year it was all about creating nicks for drainage. This year we've been doing a lot more armoring with rock. Last year it was more flat shovel and shaping now it's pry bar/500# cart and muscling big stone around. In years past we would have to worry about big summer storms and what to do with the water - this summer was bone dry and we saw what that did to certain parts of the trail.

One big thing is years ago it was a big no-no to ride trails when it was wet/rainy. I've changed my mind over the last few years and if the trail was built correctly moisture shouldn't be a problem. Bench cut and reverse grades on packed trail will shed water off very quickly. And if there is standing water someplace that can be fixed with elevation mods. That being said the best thing to do after a lot of rain is actual TM (but I'm in a minority with that thought).

Point is if you really want to do TM just come out and work - we are all learning.

mtbiker87 said:
Also wondering if perhaps holding some sort of trail maintenance primer at JORBA FEST, or Cranks, might not be such a bad idea. I know it might seem to be preaching to the choir, but these events do seem to draw in some newer, more casual riders , who might get something out of it, and I think there is a sizable amount of veteran riders who know a lot less about trail building and maintenance than they think they do, myself included.
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Like Iggy said, a TM course at a fest or even a local group ride wouldn't work. Add to that if you are at a FEST in Allamuchy and your home trails are Allaire the TM practices are going to be different. I think most riders appreciate trail work but very little really want to do much more than that - which is totally fine. If you really want to contribute then join up on a TM at one of your local parks. I know MCPS has various times and days thanks to Chris putting things together over the last year. Even if you can make 1 TM a month or catch an hour on the weekly one before work every little bit helps and you can learn a lot. I've also noticed that the folks that do little bits here and there have an extra energy which elevates the whole crew.

But listening to what @pixychick is dealing with and what I've seen at the Hartshorne maybe a FB page or something that details what is going (although that is a pain to admin/update and the best information is done in person when you can actually see things multi dimensionally). Easy answer - if you really care then join the local TM otherwise leave the shit alone.

Patrick said:
Many hikers don't want (or need) switchbacks.
Our side-hill, bench cut climbs at the Sourlands have been shortcut to the point that some of them are marked -
cause the last people in didn't know the "correct" line as we built it.
(ha - i know some off-trail stuff to cut short what they put in to cut things short!)
Click to expand...
Fuck Braiders - Jimmy 😛

www.pinkbike.com

The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 144 - Interview with an Illegal Trail Builder - Pinkbike

Berms, bench cuts, unsanctioned singletrack, and a disguised voice are all on the menu.
www.pinkbike.com www.pinkbike.com

Lots of good info in this cast. I'm not saying everyone should go out and cut unauthorized trail and things are much different in BC/Squamish than NJ but that dude Jimmy has a lot of good points. One I liked a lot was how he goes into the "bush" and scopes natural terrain before he starts digging. That might work best for a fresh trail but can work when you are trying to solve a section of eroded/blown out on a legacy trail.
 
don said:
Fuck Braiders - Jimmy 😛

www.pinkbike.com

The Pinkbike Podcast: Episode 144 - Interview with an Illegal Trail Builder - Pinkbike

Berms, bench cuts, unsanctioned singletrack, and a disguised voice are all on the menu.
www.pinkbike.com www.pinkbike.com

Lots of good info in this cast. I'm not saying everyone should go out and cut unauthorized trail and things are much different in BC/Squamish than NJ but that dude Jimmy has a lot of good points. One I liked a lot was how he goes into the "bush" and scopes natural terrain before he starts digging. That might work best for a fresh trail but can work when you are trying to solve a section of eroded/blown out on a legacy trail.
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That was a fantastic listen and extremely relevant to my area. Thanks for linking! Really interesting thoughts and the philosophy that a trail should be able to withstand any weather condition makes so much sense.
 
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pooriggy said:
We have the same thing that goes on in Monmouth County Parks.

A trail user was lining the out-slope of trails with rock, he thought he was "helping". Fortunately I met up with this person, who did not mean harm, he was just uniformed. After a discussion he became informed about out-slope drainage.

Unfortunately there are a lot of uninformed trail users who line trails with rocks and sticks, thinking they are helping...and it makes them feel good doing it. This is frustrating.

In my experience 98% of mtbers stay on the trail. There are those who do what they want. Opening up old lines, rogue-ing new lines, building jumps non-discretely... These actions bring down the credibility of 98% of the mtb community. Sadly the minority don't care, they do what they want.

Park managers and other trail users see rogue lines going in, they may be built when no one is around but it comes back to the mtbers, it effects all of us.

The best we can do as a trail user group is support Jorba, volunteer for TM at your local park and be responsible trail users. Doing so helps offset the actions of a minority who behave badly.
Click to expand...
Not sure if much progress was ever generated by starting with 'meh, it won't work'...how costly would it be to try anyway? And TBH, I think something like JORBAFest could benefit from offering more than guided rides (i.e. while the 1st edition of the flea market wasn't exactly a blockbuster, maybe the second and the third may bring more interest, especially if no admission fee was required I may add). There were lots of kids, start getting them familiar with TM would be a start. I think NICA does TM, could that be something to build upon? I don't know. On the other hand, if you think that the current status of think is OK then there's no need for improvement. I just fear what is going to happen when the dedicated people that are now doing the good work (@pixychick , Art, you, @Kirt and many others) will go 'screw it' and retire to their couch...
 
Patrick said:
Many hikers don't want (or need) switchbacks.
Our side-hill, bench cut climbs at the Sourlands have been shortcut to the point that some of them are marked -
cause the last people in didn't know the "correct" line as we built it.
(ha - i know some off-trail stuff to cut short what they put in to cut things short!)
Click to expand...

Yes the last "new shoes" switchback has been changed forever.
 
It kinda sounds like some of you think teaching trail maintenance is harder than doing it, so why bother. Isn't that the same mentality as riding is easier and more fun than trail maintenance so why bother ? I'm not saying there will be folks lining up for a lecture on not lining a trail with sticks, and not claiming that suddenly I'll be in woods with a shovel every weekend if there was, but if you get five or ten guys or gals who didn't help before, but will after learning the correct way to do things, isn't that better than none ? Some of you make it sound like there is this neon sign outside your local park anouncing trail maintenance days or something. I've been riding for more than decade, and on this forum, and others , for years, but can count on my fingers the amount of times my local trail stewards have announced specific dates for projects. I understand different techniques work for different terrain, but wouldn't you rather these folks who show an interest by doing the wrong things, were learning to do the right things, since they are at least showing some sort of intiative to begine with ? I'm not saying this to start crap, but to have a real discussion about this topic. Especially since it was brought up by a well respected trail builder in the first place.
 
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