How so?
NYNJTC trifold in the office at WaWay
- Thread starter Patrick
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How so?
I think what he means is that sort of top level view of things. A good manager will say: if my people failed, that is because I did not enable them properly. While that is a very simple view of it, I think/assume this is what he means. Did we (me, you, Norm, and all the people who lead at some level) do enough to enable everyone else to make a difference? I don't know, and I am not arguing that Norm is right or wrong. Just saying that this could be his point.
Or maybe I am wrong.
What I would also say is that as a volunteer org, there is only so much blood you can get from a stone. Speaking for myself as well as you, I have a paying job and a family plus my own fitness to care for. This stuff is somewhat down the chain in terms of how much I/we/you can devote to it. Could we do more? Yes, but at what cost to our personal/professional lives?
Recently I have come to the realization - in part because of something you wrote - that we need to way way WAY increase our numbers. Nothing short of 3000 members is even close to acceptable. We have a long way to go. But with more members come more leaders come more volunteers and so on. I think our well is super shallow with the number of members we have and that's what I see as the first step in having a bigger voice in the state.
Or again, maybe I'm wrong.
Consider the mission: Selling our services to a land manager.
Sure - it isn't sales in the traditional sense of they have to reach into their pockets,
but it is sales none the less. They risk their reputation on a volunteer organization,
and unless the person doing the advocacy has the skills to "do the sales thing"
they may be relegated to assisting when the park has a project, rather than leading and being delegated a responsible role.
Success is coming with our park stewards having longer tenures than the land managers, excellent local knowledge,
specific and achievable goals. Combine that with a history of successes at many levels across the state, and a very
useful and credible story develops.
Maybe some have been burned in the past for aligning with a mtb group, alienates the hiking group?
Again, the story is changing with the current work.
Is everyone ready to sell it? It is a skill that not everyone possesses.
The land manager is not an adversary. They have concerns and goals. What are they? Figuring out how we fit,
assisting with concerns, and helping achieve their goals is the the first step.
Karate Monkey
Well-Known Member
Get ye to bike shops and engage with the ownership. Not an easy task now/even in the past, but consider how many people are exposed to their first mountain bike that way.
Consider getting in on it with Trek, Giant, Specialized, etc, who all mine e-mails from sales. Sure, it's easy for them to lazily slap an IMBA forward on there, but that doesn't help Jorba. As far as selling it: how much more could you ask as a company that wants a repeat customer than to say: their customer is going to be put in direct contact (not 'national level') with people who eat, sleep, and bleed bikes.
To me I think you need to approach things from both the new & existing user. I know it sounds lame but I like to think of it as an incoming user experience/workflow. I am actually doing this with MTBNJ right now.
* user comes in (they find the "thing")
* what is this thing?
* why should I join this thing?
* what does this thing do for me?
* why should I stay part of this thing?
Can your org answer those questions? Right now, MTBNJ probably does not so I am working on that. I know JORBA has put a lot of effort into point #2 above. The website has been revamped in the recent past and that would lead to better answers to points 3-4-5. I have not been involved in this process so I have no insight.
I am thinking out loud.
Sometimes I ponder every possibility I can think of when reading other's words/opinion stuff, but I try to end up not assuming any of them are true. I ask (and post online in general) when it is something I care about, and/or when I have time to actually read the interwebs. Thanks MDW'21 for that. =)
I hear you re: asking ourselves if we've done enough at our volunteer gigs. I've had those thoughts at times, but not recently. Working with so many JORBA volunteers over the years, and now with NICA in a larger capacity, I've come to greatly respect the time which people give, no matter how, how often or where they do so. Your 'blood from stone' analogy is quite accurate, and rightfully so. Self > Family > Work. I feel blessed to be able to give everything I have to my work while keeping those priorities in perspective, but often volunteerism suffers, as it isn't on the list.
There are tons of studies out there regarding success of a non-profit, and compensated staff is always among the greatest impacts. Example: New Jersey has somewhere over 8.8 million people. Vermont has over 600k, or around 7% of NJ's population. JORBA has ~600 members, VMBA has ~7500 members. So JORBA has 8% of VMBA's members, while VT has 7% of NJ's population. How can it be so far off? I understand that this is not exactly an apples to apples comparison regarding focus on outdoor experience/education and green space availability, among other things, but the comparison is pretty striking.
No matter how you compare the two states though, we can be certain that we have some huge factor more mountain bikers living and riding here than VT does. One can argue tourism, seasonal visits, etc., help to increase VMBA's numbers, but over 11 times the amount?
So what do I feel is the most important factor? VMBA hired a full time director in 2012, a time when they had around 1000 members. He was gifted and perfect for the job, and had a great support staff of like-minded volunteers. They've since doubled their chapters and innovated a ton, and that director has moved on. The org is in a great place.
JORBA has been successful too, please don't misunderstand my intent. JORBA has successfully *sustained* operations, despite some really significant challenges. We are a 25+ year old organization, and have had paid membership on a state-wide level since 2007. We have retained total member #s pretty well, and have supported existing chapters with administrative tools and tools to dig/build/maintain with quite well. Our successes with land managers far outnumber our failures, and we have arguably some of the best riding in the country. We are often the voice of our community to land managers, but when it comes to issues which require money (more members) or political voice (more members), we will suffer until we change our strategy.
Goddamn. That's even more striking that I thought. I was comparing JORBA to NEMBA where the difference is so stark. I did not realize that VMBA has such a huge number. While I do agree a little that it's not apples to apples, it's not apples to anchovies either. I feel like we're talking peaches to nectarines. It's pretty close.
The paid coordinator is interesting but obviously cart-horse territory there.
Great post, btw.
Does VMBA have a free tier?
I asked the Q before. Why isn’t every Nica kid automatically a member?
Why doesn’t a free membership come with the purchase of a mountain bike?
i know the answer, in that each membership has a cost. But is that a marketing cost vs operating cost? Once in maybe they stay in? And convert to a paying member?
once again, this is the type of trial I’d like to run and report on, but it is a significant investment of time which I don’t have right now. And most likely others don’t have. Should a consultant be hired? Even that is time consuming. Are there solid case studies to fall back on?
more blue skying, but it should be somewhat in range
I asked the Q before. Why isn’t every Nica kid automatically a member?
Why doesn’t a free membership come with the purchase of a mountain bike?
i know the answer, in that each membership has a cost. But is that a marketing cost vs operating cost? Once in maybe they stay in? And convert to a paying member?
once again, this is the type of trial I’d like to run and report on, but it is a significant investment of time which I don’t have right now. And most likely others don’t have. Should a consultant be hired? Even that is time consuming. Are there solid case studies to fall back on?
more blue skying, but it should be somewhat in range
I will point to this style of argument:
Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The claim to support is that you cannot auto-enroll people into something.
The opposite argument being: why not just auto-enroll the state of NJ into JORBA?
Poof. We now have 8.8 million JORBA members.
And looking at VMBA it looks like the base level is $55. No free ride.
Karate Monkey
Well-Known Member
Presumably with that size of 'donation', there is also a commensurate increase in the expectation that something will happen with it.
I'm not complaining, mind you, but building on what @KenS said, VMBA paid their director to do just that (or, as close as something like that is). Without airing any dirty laundry, I was under the impression that JORBA does not do that.
IMO, 99% of the obstacle with getting people to part with their money is being able to point out, "We did that (and that. And that. And that. And that)". People are justifiably hesitant to join an organization (or donate) without tangible benefits. I like socks, and jerseys, and Jorbands, and stickers, etc, as much as the next guy, but for those who already volunteer their time/effort, they're not necessary...and--honestly--there's no mention of recurring benefits on the website. I know there are, but someone who isn't a member doesn't.
Yeah dude, I totally get it and it's something I'm trying to pitch in with on a small part. But I don't know what I'm doing, so I'm just sort of winging it. I am away on a bike weekend with another dad/son and I had a conversation tonight with the dad about this (obviously it was driven by this thread) and he said that that years ago his initial impression of the TM session was..."why are we doing this?" Mind you this is a JORBA member for years, he goes to TM sessions, is involved in the community. But back then, he asked a lot of the same questions you pose. He also raised a lot of the same points about collective info, not being able to find all TM sessions in the same spot, visibility of what JORBA is doing for the community, etc. I posed these questions to him about playing devil's advocate on this topic and he is saying a lot of the things that I fear.
You really hit the nail on the head. In this area, $25 is squat. But nobody throws it out the window so you need to be clear about what membership gets you.
Here is something. JORBA paid for those flow trails in High Bridge. Out of every 100 mountain bikers in NJ, how many people know that?
in reflection, as in my own experience, I haven't been successful with MCPC, NYNJTC, NJDEP...etc.
While I would not expect to see any mention of JORBA on the NYNJTC membership flyer, it is disappointing that we are not listed as a partner or member organization on their website. Its not for lack of trying, from a number of us.
Maybe we need more advocates, new, fresh with optimism, resilient and with good social skills.
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I will point to this style of argument:
Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia
The claim to support is that you cannot auto-enroll people into something.
The opposite argument being: why not just auto-enroll the state of NJ into JORBA?
Poof. We now have 8.8 million JORBA members.
And looking at VMBA it looks like the base level is $55. No free ride.
Ok. How's about a coupon code for free membership. Everyone likes a coupon.
And they get a sticker. Everyone likes a sticker. Wait, decal. I meant decal.
I just sent a check to the band booster club. To help the 100 kids in the band next year while my kid is in college. Cause it was a good experience.
The news letter and website are now on point. Get people to opt in.
The last time I used that logic was to prove the sqrt(2) was irrational. I'm fairly sure we are not there.
I’ll be honest here, I have been a JORBA member for however long and I have asked many a time “where does my money go”? Tools and other things for TM, that is great and I am grateful for having received some of those but after that...I honestly don’t know.
Paying for the high bridge trails is great too but services we need 10 high bridges to be like “oh wow, Jorba doing something here”
A free coupon doesn’t do anything but artificially bump up numbers. I know numbers are used to help sell services but still.
Paying for the high bridge trails is great too but services we need 10 high bridges to be like “oh wow, Jorba doing something here”
A free coupon doesn’t do anything but artificially bump up numbers. I know numbers are used to help sell services but still.
It's a good question and 1 that I asked @KenS 2 years ago. I asked in that general sense of members I had been talking to asking that same question, It's a fair question and unfortunately the answer is especially not sexy and very "New Jersey" in a way. A huge chunk of it goes to insurance. You remember the Alexandria pump track many years ago - well that caused the insurance company at the time to drop the org. Then just a few years ago - and Ken/someone will correct me if I am wrong - the insurance being used changed somehow, or the org dropped us again. So there was another mad scramble to fix that.
This is less of a problem if we have 7500 members paying $55 each.
On a different note, I checked out the VMBA site & join page and what they offer. We will be joining later tonight because of this alone:
They have tickets to 2 parks that we will be visiting this year. That along covers the cost of membership.
The VMBA presentation is really solid.
I should have specified 1 year free. or while in NICA. No doubt a parent supporter tier could be created with cool car window decal (@moose35).
When NICA kids do TM, it could be coordinated by JORBA (not sure if it is right now) - a little swag goes a long way.
Then a conversion campaign. What better way to reach a mountain biker than through the bike or biking activity?
This is a perfectly acceptable marketing campaign strategy. Even converting just 10% means growth.
Trailhead kiosk? Would it be staffed? Might get some non-riders there.
Partner benefits that exceed the cost of membership? That is nice. it does a couple things - check the "def worth it" box,
and gets riders to a specific location - shop, park, food place.... in return, the partner receives new customers (sometimes)
and co-marketed events.
it is a lack of bodies to develop and execute any plan. There are always good ideas. Great ideas.
Realizing them is not trivial.
I could be a little off with this answer, but I think a good portion of mebership funds goes to insurance, which is not something Jorba wants to use as a selling point, but essential if we want to work on trails. The perceived risk of mountain bikers may be part of the reason NYNJTC is hesitant to advertise their partnership with Jorba.
I think it is hard to compare as NJ does not have the same percentage of outdoor people as Vermont does. Nor does it have the MTB tourism. That being said, I do think NJ trails are worthy of tourism. However, there is more to tourism than good trails.
I tend to agree with this myself. However, Art and I have had some recent success with our relationship with certain members of NYNJTC. I can not say that we are in the clear, because there still are some old school haters in that group that are still involved on the volunteer management level, but things have greatly improved. I also get the feeling that the paid management understands that inclusive brings more members. Art and I are supervisors for NYNJTC and this so far has strengthened the relationship between the two groups and made the relationship with the park better. It's not perfect, but much better than before. Perhaps we should push for Jorba recognition, but at this point we have not felt like rocking the boat. Perhaps the new blood will do that. By the way, our supervisor position is always open for new blood if anyone is interested. Personally, I hate having to fill out all those forms for the TC every 6 months, but we could not let this opportunity to work together pass.
And combining these two, is there a difference in what JORBA and VMTB pays for insurance?
Maybe I’m just thinking of the KT arrangement, but doesn’t VT have dramatically lower liability exposure?