This Thread Blows - C19 and beyond

Paul H said:
Even if not the machinery. I would assume the operators would know which components are frequent to malfunction or breakage. They would at least stock spare parts to get back running on the ASAP.
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you never know, some places yes, some places no. I do some business with 3M(nothing to do with masks), they wanted to know everything about our production capabilities, lead times, do we have an extra plant(yes, an extra plant, because doesn't everybody have one of those on the side, just in case your plant goes down!). Other places, most in fact, just want to know the prices, and minimum quantity order number.
The really good companies really have their ducks in a row, but a lot of them do not. And like everybody is saying, it's really tough to make 2x what you usually make let alone, what ever x number now, would fill the need for masks. Especially since so much of the raw material we use to manufacture is procured from overseas.

I don't think there is any conspiracy, I think that sometimes, really bad shit happens.
 
Paul H said:
IMO... Who is more right doesn't matter much at this pt. Personally... I'm frustrated and prolly venting more so. However, I am tired of some ppl throwing out excuses left and right. Couldn't be done because of x, y and z. Most of us don't have the expertise to say one or the other and are just commenting from our small niches. Whatever the case, I refuse to believe that nothing could have been done better.
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Fair enough on the frustration and venting. We all are a little on edge. I will say though that as you are tired of excuses, I am equally tired of uninformed people that trivialize what it takes to get stuff / make stuff. Now please don't take that as aimed at you. In my line of work I deal with this issue all the time so its something I'm quite use to and hence why I got a little involved in this more recent discussion. By no means do I need to be personally "right" about this, however .I do wish to share what I know (if only from an overview level) because the more we are all informed the more we can collectively pull the rope in the same direction on the back side of this (or at least that is my long term hope).
I spent some time working for an engineering company that supported pharmaceutical manufacturing and manufacturing development. That stuff was not easy, not cheap, not fast and HIGHLY regulated. Masks and drugs are not the same thing and in that world they are categorized differently.. However sterilization and cleanliness are a HUGE deal and validation of said types of equipment is an equally huge deal. I design and build customized machinery every day. If I could delivery tomorrow what was requested today my company could make a fortune. I've literally said to people before....If I could walk on water I wouldn't work here.
 
serviceguy said:
I believe for China there's a lot more at stake than just money. At least for the elites of the communist party. @Magic probably knows a thing or two about how the communist party worked in Eastern Europe.
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For the communist party? You mean losing power? And why would they lose power? Because they were mean?

serviceguy said:
Are you evading the question? What are we talking about, sewing machines?

I don't know the specific PPE making machines, but with regard to spare parts, as I mentioned earlier, it may not be convenient or even logical to store some parts because they're too expensive if they're custom parts. If the government deems the product a national security issue then there maybe stronger motivation to stock up parts. Obviously there's always the risk of price gauging and parts that after a while may turn out not to be functional because of the good old "when the hell is anybody going to find out" principle.

It would make a lot more sense to me that instead of demanding the government, private industry and what not to think ahead of what we may need if we don't stick to common sense and safety guidelines we...well, stick to common sense and safety guidelines.
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We are talking about disruption of production here no? If so... how was my response "evading the question"?
But really... surgical mask like this? I don't know the production process here and at the risk of sounding like an ass.... I can't imagine it takes that much more.
There are fashion companies that are turning their production to masks and from what I understand, the mask produced by these fashion companies are useless.... and not from the process but more so because of the material it is being made with.
are-face-masks-effective-5e60ed5e97d03-600x400.jpg
 
Fat Trout said:
Fair enough on the frustration and venting. We all are a little on edge. I will say though that as you are tired of excuses, I am equally tired of uninformed people that trivialize what it takes to get stuff / make stuff. Now please don't take that as aimed at you. In my line of work I deal with this issue all the time so its something I'm quite use to and hence why I got a little involved in this more recent discussion. By no means do I need to be personally "right" about this, however .I do wish to share what I know (if only from an overview level) because the more we are all informed the more we can collectively pull the rope in the same direction on the back side of this (or at least that is my long term hope).
I spent some time working for an engineering company that supported pharmaceutical manufacturing and manufacturing development. That stuff was not easy, not cheap, not fast and HIGHLY regulated. Masks and drugs are not the same thing and in that world they are categorized differently.. However sterilization and cleanliness are a HUGE deal and validation of said types of equipment is an equally huge deal. I design and build customized machinery every day. If I could delivery tomorrow what was requested today my company could make a fortune. I've literally said to people before....If I could walk on water I wouldn't work here.
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Is it not true that once the development for the product and QC is completed and in place, the raw production is the easy part no?
We are not developing new masks with new designs. Maybe I am relating this to my own field and just talking out of my rear end. If so... I apologize for that.
 
Paul H said:
For the communist party? You mean losing power? And why would they lose power? Because they were mean?


We are talking about disruption of production here no? If so... how was my response "evading the question"?
But really... surgical mask like this? I don't know the production process here and at the risk of sounding like an ass.... I can't imagine it takes that much more.
There are fashion companies that are turning their production to masks and from what I understand, the mask produced by these fashion companies are useless.... and not from the process but more so because of the material it is being made with.
View attachment 123846
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What's it take to do brain surgery? I mean, you just drill a hole, fix shit, patch it up? I can repair the transmission in my car, can't be more complicated right? No idea why everyone makes it out to be so complicated!


Let's say you make cars and now you want to make masks.


Let's say there's a machine that you put in raw material and it makes that mask.

-It's made from multiple materials. You've got the stretchy band that goes around the ears, it is glued to the top & bottom parts of the main cloth. That main cloth has specific pleats in it. So let's say you have pre-cut material, you put that into the machine, out comes the mask.

-That $250k machine doesn't exist on a shelf, so it has to be made. My rough guess is 3-6 months from ordering based on my dealings with similar machines. That's assuming you order a machine that requires absolutely no customization and is the exact same as a previous model.

-That machine has to be delivered from wherever it's made to your factory. It needs to be mounted. You may need millrights to do this. It's large, heavy, gets bolted to the ground. Needs to be perfectly level. You need to have electricians run conduit/wire to it. It needs to go through testing to make sure it works on-site.

-You need to secure the cloth that goes into it. Flexible ear string comes on a spool. Pleated cloth comes on a spool. is it pre-cut? Is it cut in this machine? Is there a nationwide/worldwide shortage of this pleated cloth?

-Let's say you can get the raw material (which is actually partially finished material) and it goes through this machine. Out it comes. Do you have the correct packaging equipment (robots) to take it out of the machine, put it into plastic bags, and then put into cardboard boxes, place on pallets, wrap in shrinkwrap and then move out of the way for the next pallet?

-Is this a clean environment? Obviously dust/disease is not something you want to get onto brand new masks. So this needs to be a negative pressure room that fits all this, start to finish with HEPA filtration. That's an entirely separate project that would have to run parallel with this.
 
Paul H said:
For the communist party? You mean losing power? And why would they lose power? Because they were mean?


We are talking about disruption of production here no? If so... how was my response "evading the question"?
But really... surgical mask like this? I don't know the production process here and at the risk of sounding like an ass.... I can't imagine it takes that much more.
There are fashion companies that are turning their production to masks and from what I understand, the mask produced by these fashion companies are useless.... and not from the process but more so because of the material it is being made with.
View attachment 123846
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I was asking you how much the equipment in your business that are kept as spares cost. Did you answer it? I thought that $250K referred to the PPE machines (which could be a multitude of items BTW). If that is the cost of one of the machines in your business than you answered, if it isn't than you may not be evading the question but you're not answering it either.
 
Santapez said:
What's it take to do brain surgery? I mean, you just drill a hole, fix shit, patch it up? I can repair the transmission in my car, can't be more complicated right? No idea why everyone makes it out to be so complicated!


Let's say you make cars and now you want to make masks.


Let's say there's a machine that you put in raw material and it makes that mask.

-It's made from multiple materials. You've got the stretchy band that goes around the ears, it is glued to the top & bottom parts of the main cloth. That main cloth has specific pleats in it. So let's say you have pre-cut material, you put that into the machine, out comes the mask.

-That $250k machine doesn't exist on a shelf, so it has to be made. My rough guess is 3-6 months from ordering based on my dealings with similar machines. That's assuming you order a machine that requires absolutely no customization and is the exact same as a previous model.

-That machine has to be delivered from wherever it's made to your factory. It needs to be mounted. You may need millrights to do this. It's large, heavy, gets bolted to the ground. Needs to be perfectly level. You need to have electricians run conduit/wire to it. It needs to go through testing to make sure it works on-site.

-You need to secure the cloth that goes into it. Flexible ear string comes on a spool. Pleated cloth comes on a spool. is it pre-cut? Is it cut in this machine? Is there a nationwide/worldwide shortage of this pleated cloth?

-Let's say you can get the raw material (which is actually partially finished material) and it goes through this machine. Out it comes. Do you have the correct packaging equipment (robots) to take it out of the machine, put it into plastic bags, and then put into cardboard boxes, place on pallets, wrap in shrinkwrap and then move out of the way for the next pallet?

-Is this a clean environment? Obviously dust/disease is not something you want to get onto brand new masks. So this needs to be a negative pressure room that fits all this, start to finish with HEPA filtration. That's an entirely separate project that would have to run parallel with this.
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I am not trying to belittle the process. Perhaps I might have... but will admit thats wrong
But we just spend $2 trillion on aide. Would I be belittling the process again if I said that $2 trillion would have been more than enuff to get this going?

Again... I am prolly simplifying things but what I am trying to say is that something could have been done and earlier.
 
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Paul H said:
Is it not true that once the development for the product and QC is completed and in place, the raw production is the easy part no?
We are not developing new masks with new designs. Maybe I am relating this to my own field and just talking out of my rear end. If so... I apologize for that.
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Easier, yes but not "Easy". that said the surrounding discussion was on bringing new production online and costs / timelines of that. So....to your point, lets say you had a production line for masks. True the mask design itself and its related packaging and product marking details may be cleared on THAT particular production line. However you wanted more production any new machinery being brought online or taken out of storage and brought online would be given the full range validation requirements. Where would that equipment go, will the ISO classes for cleanliness be met, blah blah blah. Trust me, you want those checks and balances so that we are all safe in the long run with everything from products we apply physically, to saftety products that are worn. Unfortunately (for this discussion) it isn't very convenient when folks want product now now now.
Hopefully this is a little useful. My apologies if any of it comes across a little rough.
 
serviceguy said:
I was asking you how much the equipment in your business that are kept as spares cost. Did you answer it? I thought that $250K referred to the PPE machines (which could be a multitude of items BTW). If that is the cost of one of the machines in your business than you answered, if it isn't than you may not be evading the question but you're not answering it either.
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I don't understand what you are trying to prove. You already know I work in the fashion industry. What are you trying to prove? Just say it.
 
Paul H said:
Haven't heard of shortage of raw materials. Maybe you know best.
No one said production is a simple process. From what I know from my industry, there are rare occasions where a production factory runs at 100% capacity. You can't increase production without increasing capacity. For 3M to double their production on the quick, I would have to imagine that they were not at 100% to begin with so the capacity was there. Just unused until recently. But thats just my guess.
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3m had machines sitting, not running. They flipped a switch and stated making more masks.
 
Santapez said:
My rough guess is 3-6 months from ordering based on my dealings with similar machines. That's assuming you order a machine that requires absolutely no customization and is the exact same as a previous model.
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I don't know your specific industry, I used to develop sw for machines that build electric motors, alternators, starters etc. and 3-6 months for no customization is quite optimistic actually in that industry, especially since there's no such thing as no customization, each manufacturer has their own products that they want to produce with the machine(s) they order. Then you have to ship it, install it, have it tested and accepted (certify it's meeting production standards, safety standards and customer's specifications).

Also, retooling for a different wire to be used in the winding would often take as long as several weeks or months.
 
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Santapez said:
What's it take to do brain surgery? I mean, you just drill a hole, fix shit, patch it up? I can repair the transmission in my car, can't be more complicated right? No idea why everyone makes it out to be so complicated!


Let's say you make cars and now you want to make masks.


Let's say there's a machine that you put in raw material and it makes that mask.

-It's made from multiple materials. You've got the stretchy band that goes around the ears, it is glued to the top & bottom parts of the main cloth. That main cloth has specific pleats in it. So let's say you have pre-cut material, you put that into the machine, out comes the mask.

-That $250k machine doesn't exist on a shelf, so it has to be made. My rough guess is 3-6 months from ordering based on my dealings with similar machines. That's assuming you order a machine that requires absolutely no customization and is the exact same as a previous model.

-That machine has to be delivered from wherever it's made to your factory. It needs to be mounted. You may need millrights to do this. It's large, heavy, gets bolted to the ground. Needs to be perfectly level. You need to have electricians run conduit/wire to it. It needs to go through testing to make sure it works on-site.

-You need to secure the cloth that goes into it. Flexible ear string comes on a spool. Pleated cloth comes on a spool. is it pre-cut? Is it cut in this machine? Is there a nationwide/worldwide shortage of this pleated cloth?

-Let's say you can get the raw material (which is actually partially finished material) and it goes through this machine. Out it comes. Do you have the correct packaging equipment (robots) to take it out of the machine, put it into plastic bags, and then put into cardboard boxes, place on pallets, wrap in shrinkwrap and then move out of the way for the next pallet?

-Is this a clean environment? Obviously dust/disease is not something you want to get onto brand new masks. So this needs to be a negative pressure room that fits all this, start to finish with HEPA filtration. That's an entirely separate project that would have to run parallel with this.
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yeah, I think you're right here in that it's more than just hey, let's make this widget instead of that widget.
 
Somewhat related.... I guess, maybe not, Bauer (hockey equipment guys) started a few weeks ago to design a face shield. They've shut down production of their usual sports gear, and hope to start churning the face shields out possibly as early as next week.. This simple piece takes three to four weeks to start producing, with materials that they currently have/use... here's the spec sheet if anyone wants to start making this simple piece on their own.
 
Paul H said:
I don't understand what you are trying to prove. You already know I work in the fashion industry. What are you trying to prove? Just say it.
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My point is that stocking up a few sewing machine is a different thing than stocking a machine to mass produce any type of PPE. I don't know how much a sewing machine or a loom may cost so I was asking you. Don't take everything so personal, it must be nerve wrecking!

I am aware of fashion and sport industry companies converting to face mask production, but I don't believe they're on a scale of millions units. Anything helps though.
 
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