Another Cyclist Murdered

[JPark]

Y

You going to find me a time in Russia a kid took his parent's car out on a killing spree?

You don't need to go the Russia for that, the Waukesha Wisconsin Christmas parade massacre was a mass killing via automobile.
I think it was his own car though.

 

[Santapez]

Y

You don't need to go the Russia for that, the Waukesha Wisconsin Christmas parade massacre was a mass killing via automobile.
I think it was his own car though.

Completely missing the point. It's much more likely that kid's will get hurt by unlocked guns than some killing spree from the chainsaw or cars. Are you seriously trying to say that unsecured guns in a house are on the same level as a car with keys? A young kid can go from grabbing a found gun to killing his/her friend within seconds.

You aren't doing the pro-gun movement any good if you're fighting this battle. Someone drove through a crowd in Waukesha, so now we don't have to be concerned about unsecured guns? Or some kid in Russia supposedly committed suicide via chainsaw so now unsecured chainsaws are on the same level as unsecured guns?

 

[JPark]

Completely missing the point. It's much more likely that kid's will get hurt by unlocked guns than some killing spree from the chainsaw or cars. Are you seriously trying to say that unsecured guns in a house are on the same level as a car with keys? A young kid can go from grabbing a found gun to killing his/her friend within seconds.

You aren't doing the pro-gun movement any good if you're fighting this battle. Someone drove through a crowd in Waukesha, so now we don't have to be concerned about unsecured guns? Or some kid in Russia supposedly committed suicide via chainsaw so now unsecured chainsaws are on the same level as unsecured guns?

The point is almost anything can be turned into a deadly weapon in the wrong hands.

 

[Johnny Utah]

The point is almost anything can be turned into a deadly weapon in the wrong hands.

Correct.

Point 2 @Santapez is are you only asking about guns, or are you asking about how other risks/threats are controlled, be it an item or social behavior by someone in the household. - and I will edit/add - if only guns why? Why not address other issues?

Surly there are other lethal threats, but there are non-lethal threats I surly wouldn’t want children to be exposed/involved to/with. Do these get a pass? Why?

I will further edit - driving is by far one of the most dangerous things the majority of us do daily. If someone else drives your kids are you asking about their driving record? Do they maintain their car? Are they under the influence while operating? Are you okay with them doing the same back?

 

[Santapez]

Correct.

Point 2 @Santapez is are you only asking about guns, or are you asking about how other risks/threats are controlled, be it an item or social behavior by someone in the household. - and I will edit/add - if only guns why? Why not address other issues?

Surly there are other lethal threats, but there are non-lethal threats I surly wouldn’t want children to be exposed/involved to/with. Do these get a pass? Why?

I will further edit - driving is by far one of the most dangerous things the majority of us do daily. If someone else drives your kids are you asking about their driving record? Do they maintain their car? Are they under the influence while operating? Are you okay with them doing the same back?

I don't do any of the above. I don't have kids and personally I'd be more concerned if I did drop kids off at a house with a swimming pool than worrying about unsecured guns in the house. Unless for some reason I thought there were unsecured guns and I wouldn't be leaving my kids there because overall the parent's are idiots. If I trusted parents to not allow my kid to swim unattended in their pool I'd also expect the kid didn't have access to guns.

But worrying about people worrying about this is nonsense and makes pro-gun people look stupid. It certainly isn't going to help the pro-gun side by telling anyone who has the above concern that they're overly worried and should also be just as concerned about access to cars or chainsaws.

45k people died last year from gunshots in the US, slightly more than automobile accidents. But that doesn't mean guns don't kill people. And none of those guns got people to work or school. Two mutually exclusive things but one continually has a huge benefit to our society, they other may or may not help prevent tyranny.

Taking an airline flight in the US is one of the safest things you can do, but I'm not going to tell someone they are an idiot for their irrational fear of flying.

 

[rick81721]

Clearly the dumbest response ever. How the fuck do you trust someone you’ve never met? I‘ve had parents drop their kid off at my house and come in my house, and they were clearly looking to get the lay of the land. It didn’t bother me, why would it bother you?

Getting the "lay of the land" is a far stretch from asking about guns. Did these people rummage around in your bedroom? Closet? Medicine cabinet? As I first proposed, if someone asks about guns, they have a problem with them. And if it was a kid my kid wanted to play with, I'd just say, "Nope. That NRA sticker on the rear door was left by the previous owner.. yeah, that's the ticket."

 

[rick81721]

Hmm... when I was growing up, I don't think my parents knew the parents of 90% of my friends or their parents and I was at their houses all the time. But I think it the 70's and 80's, it just wasn't thought about that much.

This. Even today, once kids are in their teens, all bets are off. Parents will not know what houses their kids are going to or what's in there.

 

[Fat Trout]

I don't do any of the above. I don't have kids and personally I'd be more concerned if I did drop kids off at a house with a swimming pool than worrying about unsecured guns in the house. Unless for some reason I thought there were unsecured guns and I wouldn't be leaving my kids there because overall the parent's are idiots. If I trusted parents to not allow my kid to swim unattended in their pool I'd also expect the kid didn't have access to guns.

But worrying about people worrying about this is nonsense and makes pro-gun people look stupid. It certainly isn't going to help the pro-gun side by telling anyone who has the above concern that they're overly worried and should also be just as concerned about access to cars or chainsaws.

45k people died last year from gunshots in the US, slightly more than automobile accidents. But that doesn't mean guns don't kill people. And none of those guns got people to work or school. Two mutually exclusive things but one continually has a huge benefit to our society, they other may or may not help prevent tyranny.

Taking an airline flight in the US is one of the safest things you can do, but I'm not going to tell someone they are an idiot for their irrational fear of flying.

wait....worring about people worrying makes someone look stupid. Really? Im pretty sure it sounded like the hyperventilating or angry anti gun parents in the stated expample sent the school and cops for a wellness /let me search visit. Who was justified. I dont know but the concept that someone could ask me a question....make a judgment and drag me into an issue ignorantly or maliciously....might worry me a bit. Hope that doesn't make me stupid.

 

[Santapez]

wait....worring about people worrying makes someone look stupid. Really? Im pretty sure it sounded like the hyperventilating or angry anti gun parents in the stated expample sent the school and cops for a wellness /let me search visit. Who was justified. I dont know but the concept that someone could ask me a question....make a judgment and drag me into an issue ignorantly or maliciously....might worry me a bit. Hope that doesn't make me stupid.

Huh? I'm not defending them, nor do I think they were sane. But that is an issue in an area like NJ with no gun culture.

I'm really just backing up @Mahnken where he stated he didn't really want his kids to be at a house with guns. Do I think he's overzealous in his caution? Yes. But as a mostly pro 2nd Amendment person myself I'm not going to tell him he's an idiot.

As someone who used to keep guns in his house, I am 100% sure if I had kids I'd be able to convince @Mahnken guns at my house weren't an issue. But the crux of my argument wouldn't be that his opinion is dumb because I've got a chainsaw and the keys to my car are readily accessible.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Huh? I'm not defending them, nor do I think they were sane. But that is an issue in an area like NJ with no gun culture.

I'm really just backing up @Mahnken where he stated he didn't really want his kids to be at a house with guns. Do I think he's overzealous in his caution? Yes. But as a mostly pro 2nd Amendment person myself I'm not going to tell him he's an idiot.

As someone who used to keep guns in his house, I am 100% sure if I had kids I'd be able to convince @Mahnken guns at my house weren't an issue. But the crux of my argument wouldn't be that his opinion is dumb because I've got a chainsaw and the keys to my car are readily accessible.

I think you have taken one end of the argument to the extreme and are missing my point. Is the chainsaw a stretch - yes. Car , not really as you just noted deaths by auto were on par or with gun deaths.

The point I was making is beyond guns what else do you ask about that you feel is a threat in the house. Only guns, if so why only guns and nothing else?

Also, your gun deaths are skewed - 54% of those deaths you quoted were suicide. If that is the case you have bigger fish to fry as a parent.

 

[Fat Trout]

Huh? I'm not defending them, nor do I think they were sane. But that is an issue in an area like NJ with no gun culture.

I'm really just backing up @Mahnken where he stated he didn't really want his kids to be at a house with guns. Do I think he's overzealous in his caution? Yes. But as a mostly pro 2nd Amendment person myself I'm not going to tell him he's an idiot.

As someone who used to keep guns in his house, I am 100% sure if I had kids I'd be able to convince @Mahnken guns at my house weren't an issue. But the crux of my argument wouldn't be that his opinion is dumb because I've got a chainsaw and the keys to my car are readily accessible.

I'm really only replying to this part of your post. But worrying about people worrying about this is nonsense and makes pro-gun people look stupid.
its not nonsense and no one is stupid if they are concerned about how information the are being requested to share may or may not be used against them. Anyway, thats my only point. Carry on

 

[Mahnken]

Huh? I'm not defending them, nor do I think they were sane. But that is an issue in an area like NJ with no gun culture.

I'm really just backing up @Mahnken where he stated he didn't really want his kids to be at a house with guns. Do I think he's overzealous in his caution? Yes. But as a mostly pro 2nd Amendment person myself I'm not going to tell him he's an idiot.

As someone who used to keep guns in his house, I am 100% sure if I had kids I'd be able to convince @Mahnken guns at my house weren't an issue. But the crux of my argument wouldn't be that his opinion is dumb because I've got a chainsaw and the keys to my car are readily accessible.

There's a reason I stopped responding to this thread. It's stupid arguments like this, that have nothing to do with the conversation that I'd like to have. which is, how do we curtail the ridiculous amounts of gun violence in this country. There are people with guns in their house that I trust letting my kids at. And there's also people I know who do not have their guns completely inaccessible to their children, which I think is insane. I don't care how much you think you train your pre-teen to respect guns, they're still kids. They still want to show their friends cool things, their brains work differently than adult brains, and accidents happen. All I want to know is that you're not stupid enough to leave your gun in your nightstand while kids are in the house. If you are, or are unwilling to answer that question, whatever, bye Felecia. There's a reason the hospital asks if you have guns in the house when you take a baby home. There's a reason the pediatrician's office asks if you have guns in the house and if they're secured. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but common sense isn't all too common nowadays, and yes, sometimes responsible gun owners can be extremely irresponsible.

But whatever, because arguing with someone that doesn't even have kids about how I should raise mine, is beyond stupid.

 

[rick81721]

I'm really just backing up @Mahnken where he stated he didn't really want his kids to be at a house with guns. Do I think he's overzealous in his caution? Yes. But as a mostly pro 2nd Amendment person myself I'm not going to tell him he's an idiot.

I don't think anyone is saying he's an idiot or even wrong to not want his kids to play in a house with guns. My only argument was that it's virtually impossible to enforce, especially once the kids get older, i.e. 13+

 

[Frank]

Let’s get back to a civil discussion please. There is a lot to be learned on both sides of this topic, so we may actually do some good here if we can behave ourselves.

 

[serviceguy]

There's a reason I stopped responding to this thread. It's stupid arguments like this, that have nothing to do with the conversation that I'd like to have. which is, how do we curtail the ridiculous amounts of gun violence in this country. There are people with guns in their house that I trust letting my kids at. And there's also people I know who do not have their guns completely inaccessible to their children, which I think is insane. I don't care how much you think you train your pre-teen to respect guns, they're still kids. They still want to show their friends cool things, their brains work differently than adult brains, and accidents happen. All I want to know is that you're not stupid enough to leave your gun in your nightstand while kids are in the house. If you are, or are unwilling to answer that question, whatever, bye Felecia. There's a reason the hospital asks if you have guns in the house when you take a baby home. There's a reason the pediatrician's office asks if you have guns in the house and if they're secured. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but common sense isn't all too common nowadays, and yes, sometimes responsible gun owners can be extremely irresponsible.

But whatever, because arguing with someone that doesn't even have kids about how I should raise mine, is beyond stupid.

Ah, I was waiting for the “you can’t understand because you don’t have kids”…not really surprising though.

 

[TheGerd]

Fun fact, Tom Wopat lives in West Milford. I saw him walking out of Shop Rite last week. It was awesome.

Wait, Luke Duke lives in Jersey?

 

[roc]

Getting the "lay of the land" is a far stretch from asking about guns. Did these people rummage around in your bedroom? Closet? Medicine cabinet? As I first proposed, if someone asks about guns, they have a problem with them. And if it was a kid my kid wanted to play with, I'd just say, "Nope. That NRA sticker on the rear door was left by the previous owner.. yeah, that's the ticket."

Fine and dandy, but I’m not anti gun. Like I said, I got some looks, but I didn't think it was this big deal to ask?

no, they didn’t go rummaging around, but they were definitely checking out the house. I didn’t give a shit. I get it, they love their kids. No biggie on my end.

 

[roc]

Correct.

Point 2 @Santapez is are you only asking about guns, or are you asking about how other risks/threats are controlled, be it an item or social behavior by someone in the household. - and I will edit/add - if only guns why? Why not address other issues?

Surly there are other lethal threats, but there are non-lethal threats I surly wouldn’t want children to be exposed/involved to/with. Do these get a pass? Why?

I will further edit - driving is by far one of the most dangerous things the majority of us do daily. If someone else drives your kids are you asking about their driving record? Do they maintain their car? Are they under the influence while operating? Are you okay with them doing the same back?

I would be ok with then doing the same back. If I go out with the wife and kids I’ll have a glass of wine or maybe s-lit a bottle with my wife. If we have kids other than our own, my wife informed me that is a no go.

im not trying to win any argument here, I honestly didn’t think of that other stuff. Just wanted to make sure there were no unsecured guns in the house. Growing up, we had 2, .22 rifles completely unsecured, down in the basement in a leather case.

 

[Mahnken]

Ah, I was waiting for the “you can’t understand because you don’t have kids”…not really surprising though.

I said, I'm not arguing about how I should raise my kids with someone who doesn't have kids. And honestly, I'm not arguing about how I raise my kids with anyone, period.
Besides, this whole argument about asking about guns in the house is just a distraction from the real discussion about how to curtail the gun violence in this country.

I don't think anyone is saying he's an idiot or even wrong to not want his kids to play in a house with guns. My only argument was that it's virtually impossible to enforce, especially once the kids get older, i.e. 13+

Sure, it's virtually impossible to enforce and is based on the honesty of the other party. Just trying to do the best for my kids. The problem with guns vs other household items is the efficiency in which a gun kills. Chainsaw, car keys, knives, scissors, whatever.... None of those items will kill you as easily as a gun in an accident. You can probably find at least 100 accidental deaths with a gun for every one accidental death with all those other things combined. I'm not looking up the actual stats on that, cause frankly, I don't care.

The funny thing is, @rick81721, despite how much divisive political stances would want us to believe, our stances on the subject actually overlap quite a bit. There's so much more that we agree on then these hypothetical arguments would lead you to believe. Same as the renewable energy stuff we were taking about in the other thread. Some people just have their blinders on and completely refuse to ever let someone with a different perspective gain an inch.

 

[Santapez]

I said, I'm not arguing about how I should raise my kids with someone who doesn't have kids. And honestly, I'm not arguing about how I raise my kids with anyone, period.
Besides, this whole argument about asking about guns in the house is just a distraction from the real discussion about how to curtail the gun violence in this country.

Sure, it's virtually impossible to enforce and is based on the honesty of the other party. Just trying to do the best for my kids. The problem with guns vs other household items is the efficiency in which a gun kills. Chainsaw, car keys, knives, scissors, whatever.... None of those items will kill you as easily as a gun in an accident. You can probably find at least 100 accidental deaths with a gun for every one accidental death with all those other things combined. I'm not looking up the actual stats on that, cause frankly, I don't care.

The funny thing is, @rick81721, despite how much divisive political stances would want us to believe, our stances on the subject actually overlap quite a bit. There's so much more that we agree on then these hypothetical arguments would lead you to believe. Same as the renewable energy stuff we were taking about in the other thread. Some people just have their blinders on and completely refuse to ever let someone with a different perspective gain an inch.

Just to be clear, while you may not care about my opinion since I don't have kids, I think I share your opinion and concern for your kids. 🙂

And what you said to Rick has a lot of truth to it. People can get into arguments when in reality there's a lot of overlap in their beliefs. And instead of focusing on the differences, better off focusing on the similarities.