I am a transgender woman and I occasionally race my bike. AMA

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mstyer said:
Help me out here.....can you distill this statement of your opinion down to the question you're asking me?
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I'm re-examining my opinion of "is it fair?" - as stated in the other thread, i didn't think it was, but am always open.
And it is really the only thing that matters in the race context.
Not the headline, not a win for the group. They are the result of a fair competition.

Science trots out performance curves and says they are equal - elite performers are outliers anyway.
I don't dismiss the science, i accept it. Rachel is an outlier on the performance curve, and some want to accredit that to former T levels.
That is the issue we are examining.

In retrospect, I don't think i should ask you about her experience - which i what i was getting at. I'm sure there will be an
interview or article that pops up, i'll put her in my google news feed.

apologies - much of this/that is typing aloud to get my thoughts straight. when i have a coherent question, i'll ask it.
 
Monkey Soup said:
Everyone is different


Everyone is different, and your personal example may not be representative of the larger population. Its just scientific fact males and females put on muscle mass and skeletal density differently as they grow and mature. As a result, men are taller and heavier than women on average. While you may have been of slight build, your friend Rachel started out much taller, bigger, and more muscular than the average woman. Even with a 25% loss in performance (which may be different with her because everyone is different), can you definitively say she didn't have an advantage? As a more extreme example, if 6'5", 207 pound Usain Bolt decided to undergo a transformation and sprint the 100 and 200M with the ladies, how can you say there's not advantage there? If the women's world record was broken, would it be fair?

Transgender folks should be allowed to compete, the passion for sport and competition transcends gender. I don't think a separate category should be created for transgender, this country is divided enough as it is through 45 years of a rotten political system creating division and entitlements to keep us at each others throats (a discussion for another day). Yet another category to separate us is wrong. However, lets not pretend that its a level playing field where athletic competition is concerned. Where we stand today with technology and science, it isn't. Someday through medical advances like genetic editing, etc. we may get there, but to say its all equal now will just alienate people before you can even start a conversation about it.
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Another perspective - she makes a compelling argument on testosterone level alone:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other...rans-athlete-has-advantage-in-speed-and-power
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/world/americas/brazil-transgender-volleyball-tifanny-abreu.html

Some highlights:

"Ms. Harper, who published a study on transgender athletes, says transgender women who go through puberty as males do have advantages that cannot be eliminated completely through hormone therapy.

“It reduces muscle mass, but not to typical female averages,” she said. “On average, transgender women are taller, bigger and stronger. For many sports, including volleyball, these are advantages.”

But, she added, they also have disadvantages. The main one is they maintain their typically larger frames, but with reduced muscle mass and aerobic capacity."


"After joining the women’s professional league last year, Ms. Abreu’s performance on the court quickly caught the nation’s attention. In less than a month, she was scoring the highest number of points a game on average. And in January, she beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39 (a record Ms. Caixeta has since matched)"

Ms. Abreu, who at 6-foot 3-inches is tied for the tallest member of her team, has said herself that a transgender woman might have some advantages in volleyball, but she points out she is complying with all of the rules.
 
Kirt said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/world/americas/brazil-transgender-volleyball-tifanny-abreu.html

Some highlights:

"Ms. Harper, who published a study on transgender athletes, says transgender women who go through puberty as males do have advantages that cannot be eliminated completely through hormone therapy.

“It reduces muscle mass, but not to typical female averages,” she said. “On average, transgender women are taller, bigger and stronger. For many sports, including volleyball, these are advantages.”

But, she added, they also have disadvantages. The main one is they maintain their typically larger frames, but with reduced muscle mass and aerobic capacity."


"After joining the women’s professional league last year, Ms. Abreu’s performance on the court quickly caught the nation’s attention. In less than a month, she was scoring the highest number of points a game on average. And in January, she beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39 (a record Ms. Caixeta has since matched)"

Ms. Abreu, who at 6-foot 3-inches is tied for the tallest member of her team, has said herself that a transgender woman might have some advantages in volleyball, but she points out she is complying with all of the rules.
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You neglected to include this paragraph in your copy/paste:

After studying hours of Ms. Abreu’s games, Ms. Harper said that factor explains why the Brazilian star is such a formidable spiker but slow, and even a bit of a liability, in the back of the court. She noted that since Ms. Abreu joined Vôlei Bauru, the team has inched up just one place in the Superliga ranking, to eighth.
 
mstyer said:
Until she presents peer-reviewed scientific data, it's just her opinion. Thanks for pulling this anti-trans hit piece into my AMA. Classy.
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Rick’s article was fair and to say that more research is needed is not unfair. IDK, maybe this is the equivalent of Chris Carmichael writing an article on post doping benefits, so maybe I am off-base.

@Kirt ommited paragraph was not relevant to the coversation as a single player does not win games in volleyball.

“ has said herself that a transgender woman might have some advantages in volleyball, but she points out she is complying with all of the rules”.
Great example, complying with all the rules and has noted that some advantages may be had.

In any case, thoughts on the article Kirt posted @mstyer?
 
mstyer said:
Until she presents peer-reviewed scientific data, it's just her opinion. Thanks for pulling this anti-trans hit piece into my AMA. Classy.
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I'm just going to put it out there that when you dismiss an article that's clearly coming from a background of science and not bias, and then you call it an "anti-trans" hit piece, you're not doing yourself any favors.

I read that full article and at no point take it to be "anti-trans". I'm no expert on the subject, however I see nothing glaringly wrong in the science they are stating.
 
stb222 said:
In any case, thoughts on the article Kirt posted @mstyer?
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My thoughts are that her height is definitely an advantage for a sport like volleyball, just as it would be for a cisgender woman who is 6'3" (not unheard of). We're talking about cycling, not volleyball though. The far more relevant information in that article pertains to her reduced muscle mass and aerobic capacity.
 
mstyer said:
Until she presents peer-reviewed scientific data, it's just her opinion. Thanks for pulling this anti-trans hit piece into my AMA. Classy.
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The scientific basis for that article is nothing that I didn't learn in undergrad physiology class, there's nothing that needs to be peer reviewed. There's also nothing there that's anti-trans. You need to respect other peoples positions if you expect anyone to respect yours.
 
Monkey Soup said:
You need to respect other peoples positions if you expect anyone to respect yours.
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Thank you @Monkey Soup I feel in society the minute someone disagrees they are deemed racists or ignorant and the channels of communication are closed. If this is a open discussion then let it be that.

But I think what is lacking in this thread is the opinion of the 40+ year old, mother of 2 full time working woman.

I've read all sides to this argument.

McKinnon's victory is another reminder that "transgender rights" will always trump women's rights. I have seen pictures of breastfeeding woman at races because pregnancy is not a medical condition to defer a race. I've seen Jalapeno Cycling fight for equal pay at races for men and woman. Woman argue upgrade points are not calculated correctly. That there are not enough woman's categories at races.

When do our voices count. I am a woman trying like hell to do my best but every turn there is a road block.

I am sorry if I do not share the opinion of the majority or if i offend anyone. It doesn't make me wrong, just makes me human.
 
sarcaro said:
Thank you @Monkey Soup I feel in society the minute someone disagrees they are deemed racists or ignorant and the channels of communication are closed. If this is a open discussion then let it be that.

But I think what is lacking in this thread is the opinion of the 40+ year old, mother of 2 full time working woman.

I've read all sides to this argument.

McKinnon's victory is another reminder that "transgender rights" will always trump women's rights. I have seen pictures of breastfeeding woman at races because pregnancy is not a medical condition to defer a race. I've seen Jalapeno Cycling fight for equal pay at races for men and woman. Woman argue upgrade points are not calculated correctly. That there are not enough woman's categories at races.

When do our voices count. I am a woman trying like hell to do my best but every turn there is a road block.

I am sorry if I do not share the opinion of the majority or if i offend anyone. It doesn't make me wrong, just makes me human.
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I agree that more female voices (birth or otherwise) are needed in the conversation.

Anything I (I only like to speak for myself) contribute is simply a detached theoretical discussion point as I’m not directly Impacted the way that you and/or Morgan are.

Just as a clarification: when you said

“McKinnon's victory is another reminder that "transgender rights" will always trump women's rights.”

In what way? It’s not a challenge I’m just not sure I understand. Is it in terms of press coverage? Sort of jumping to the front of the line kind of thing? Or actual institutional preferential treatment? Again, not a challenge... I simply want to understand.

In terms of “traditional” gender gap issues, those I DO understand.
 
Juggernaut said:
I agree that more female voices (birth or otherwise) are needed in the conversation.

Anything I (I only like to speak for myself) contribute is simply a detached theoretical discussion point as I’m not directly Impacted the way that you and/or Morgan are.

Just as a clarification: when you said

“McKinnon's victory is another reminder that "transgender rights" will always trump women's rights.”

In what way? It’s not a challenge I’m just not sure I understand. Is it in terms of press coverage? Sort of jumping to the front of the line kind of thing? Or actual institutional preferential treatment? Again, not a challenge... I simply want to understand.

In terms of “traditional” gender gap issues, those I DO understand.
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How dare you challenge me!! KIDDING

Because her victory took away from the WOMANS race and focused on her sexuality
 
sarcaro said:
How dare you challenge me!! KIDDING

Because her victory took away from the WOMANS race and focused on her sexuality
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So the message I'm getting from this, Stephanie, is that you're fine with trans women being part of the race, but we're not allowed to occasionally win? Is that right? Rachel's victory doesn't take away from anyone's race any more than someone winning who has more time and dedication to training.

All of those issues with unequal treatment at races are ones that I've taken up and fought for too, and ones that we're making progress on.

If we can't agree on these fundamental truths, then I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion:

Trans women are women
Trans men are men
Gender =/= sexuality =/= body parts
 
mstyer said:
So the message I'm getting from this, Stephanie, is that you're fine with trans women being part of the race, but we're not allowed to occasionally win? Is that right? Rachel's victory doesn't take away from anyone's race any more than someone winning who has more time and dedication to training.

All of those issues with unequal treatment at races are ones that I've taken up and fought for too, and ones that we're making progress on.

If we can't agree on these fundamental truths, then I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion:

Trans women are women
Trans men are men
Gender =/= sexuality =/= body parts
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I could be WAAAAY off base here, but I think she might have meant, if a “Woman” wins the “Women’s Race”, why is the “qualifier” needed (perhaps applied is the better term?)

Which may be just my take, but I think it might actually be the underlying thing that’s been rumbling around in my head since the OP. I just hadn’t put a finger on it till now. Why was it done? Was the object to elevate one over the other?
 
mstyer said:
So the message I'm getting from this, Stephanie, is that you're fine with trans women being part of the race, but we're not allowed to occasionally win? Is that right? Rachel's victory doesn't take away from anyone's race any more than someone winning who has more time and dedication to training.

All of those issues with unequal treatment at races are ones that I've taken up and fought for too, and ones that we're making progress on.

If we can't agree on these fundamental truths, then I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion:

Trans women are women
Trans men are men
Gender =/= sexuality =/= body parts
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Ok, Morgan....since we are using names

I was not stating anything about her not being able to win. I merely stated that the focus is on her sexuality.

I never once attacked you or degraded you. I simply voiced my opinion.
 
Juggernaut said:
I could be WAAAAY off base here, but I think she might have meant, if a “Woman” wins the “Women’s Race”, why is the “qualifier” needed (perhaps applied is the better term?)

Which may be just my take, but I think it might actually be the underlying thing that’s been rumbling around in my head since the OP. I just hadn’t put a finger on it till now. Why was it done? Was the object to elevate one over the other?
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exactly
 
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