Jungle Habitat Conditions
- Thread starter smh5star
- Start date
V-Dub
Well-Known Member
Ya know it's really not bad, few wet spots most of which will drain down quickly.
There's small tree down on a Ryno , should be good for the weekend
I've never seen warthog this dry, this early.
only the lowest spots in the park have water right now.
I picked-up sticks on the racecourse today - warthog/otter slide/Rhino & horn/tanks/cages/goat.....watch died, so somewhere out there.
only the lowest spots in the park have water right now.
I picked-up sticks on the racecourse today - warthog/otter slide/Rhino & horn/tanks/cages/goat.....watch died, so somewhere out there.
Zack 54
Well-Known Member
This is an absolute horror! Is not remediation or restoration of trails part of the permit process when planning an event? Hopefully the promoter has integrity and will correct this horrible situation ASAP!
Red Mosquito
Formerly RLB the Scrapple Boy
Was this the “Jungle MTB Escape”?
Ashcor
Well-Known Member
FWIW....
Racing in NJ is a bit of a catch 22.
The simple solution to this is no races/events in the spring when the weather and trail conditions are not conducive to that type of use.
Unfortunately, after memorial day (when the weather typically dries out in NJ) many of the parks/trails do not allow race events to take place until after Labor Day (Ringwood, Wayway etc).
That leaves the fall when the weather becomes iffy again although arguably less so than the spring. In order to have a full race season that leaves dealing with the "spring cleanup" or opening up summer racing somehow, or condensing the entire season to the fall.
Jorba's roll is to be the advocate for mountain biking and trails in NJ. As part of that they should be working with the parks leadership, be it state or local to perhaps open up more racing during the summer months and/or conversely banning it during the wet season (if necessary). Proactive vs reactive.
On the other side, promoters should bare the responsibility to work with JORBA representatives/crews and park management when designing race courses to avoid sensitive sections and to repair damage when done. (And I know for a fact that there is a crew going up to work on the trails this week.)
As someone who does a lot of volunteer trail work I completely understand the frustration with the situation but flame wars on forums and social media essentially accomplish absolutely nothing.
There's a bigger picture here than just "one bad promoter" and if a solution is to be found, that bigger picture needs to be looked at and addressed collaboratively with everyone involved. Jorba, Race Series Leadership, State and Local managers, Race promoters and racers otherwise we can just repost this entire thread next year.....
Again just my take FWIW....
Racing in NJ is a bit of a catch 22.
The simple solution to this is no races/events in the spring when the weather and trail conditions are not conducive to that type of use.
Unfortunately, after memorial day (when the weather typically dries out in NJ) many of the parks/trails do not allow race events to take place until after Labor Day (Ringwood, Wayway etc).
That leaves the fall when the weather becomes iffy again although arguably less so than the spring. In order to have a full race season that leaves dealing with the "spring cleanup" or opening up summer racing somehow, or condensing the entire season to the fall.
Jorba's roll is to be the advocate for mountain biking and trails in NJ. As part of that they should be working with the parks leadership, be it state or local to perhaps open up more racing during the summer months and/or conversely banning it during the wet season (if necessary). Proactive vs reactive.
On the other side, promoters should bare the responsibility to work with JORBA representatives/crews and park management when designing race courses to avoid sensitive sections and to repair damage when done. (And I know for a fact that there is a crew going up to work on the trails this week.)
As someone who does a lot of volunteer trail work I completely understand the frustration with the situation but flame wars on forums and social media essentially accomplish absolutely nothing.
There's a bigger picture here than just "one bad promoter" and if a solution is to be found, that bigger picture needs to be looked at and addressed collaboratively with everyone involved. Jorba, Race Series Leadership, State and Local managers, Race promoters and racers otherwise we can just repost this entire thread next year.....
Again just my take FWIW....
Many years ago, I approached Frank about having an MTBNJ race at Allaire. He said he did not approve, but it wasn't his park and he wouldn't do anything to stop me/us from getting a permit.
I respect the hell out of Frank. And the idea was dropped.
What many of us in the community are seeing is the flat-out disrespect of the JORBA rep by the promoter. This particular promoter has historically gone low-budget with his races. There are often a lack of arrows (again this race, we heard of people going off course), and the prizes are often questionable. The last part may not be fair. But these stories make their way around the bike community.
As someone said to me, "Let's be real, this race was still going to be held even if there had been a hurricane." It's hard for me to disagree. There seems to be a basic lack of respect from the promoter towards the JORBA rep here.
Does JORBA own the park? Absolutely not. Are we collectively doing a disservice to the park and community by totally ignoring his opinion? I believe that yes, we are.
I think your post is fair, and you bring up good points about when we can even have races in the state. I get it, it's not easy. Sure, we could wait until the fall but then we may literally be battling hurricanes. And for many of the racers, fall is when motivate to race is low and desire to JRA is high.
I think criticism is warranted when this has happened in the past and the rep was vocal prior to the event leading up with rain in the forecast. If not here in the "Jungle Habitat Conditions" thread, then where is the appropriate place to discuss the bad conditions due to the race? No one is personally attacking him or anything.
Not to beat a dead horse here, I'm a racer and a JORBA rep. My decision to not race Sunday was 100% out of respect for the volunteers up at Jungle. I believe Black Bear cancelled their race 2 years ago at Waway which that organization is heavily tied to the trail crew up there so they have more buy in to keeping the trails nice.
It's a sticky situation, absolutely. I'm glad they'll be working to fix the sections they wrecked.
serviceguy
Well-Known Member
As the promoter needs the approval of the State Park management in order to organize a race in a State Park, wouldn't it be simply a question of adding a 'weather permitting' condition to the the permit issued for the race, maybe adding the JORBA rep as the person responsible for calling the race off if conditions do not allow for it? Is this something that JORBA could work out with the State ?
Ashcor
Well-Known Member
The issue is one of authority and jurisdiction.
The land is the state's land, if they issue a permit for the race and have no issue with the damage done that's really the end of it. Jorba or anyone else getting upset is technically irrelevant. I'm not saying that's a good thing but it is what it is.
Jorba has no authority to tell the state what to do/allow/permit other than as an advisory role and that requires the state to agree to listen.
This is why IMO this issue is so sticky. It requires the cooperation of roughly 3 (or more) entities working together to make it work and even more when you consider that some parks/trails are state, some are county and some are local town property.
Racing is an important part of the sport and unfortunately hard on the trails IF the courses aren't designed and set up with care. Much of Jungle is well drained rock trails but some of it isn't. The challenge is courses need to be a minimum length to be viable for a race.
Perhaps a workable solution is this:
Don't leave the course design up to the promoters.....
Since this seems to be a recurring issue (at this location particularly) perhaps a solution would be for the local trail crew to proactively create a race course capable of withstanding races in poor conditions yet long/diverse enough to satisfy the needs of the race, getting buy in from the state (or whomever manages the area) to say to promoters: "Yes, you can have your race here but this is your course, take it or leave it, do not deviate"
The promoters may welcome this approach because this cuts out a lot of labor on their part creating the course.
The trail crew can then put some proactive effort in, with the support of jorba to make sure that course is maintained, armored and has proper drainage over the course of the year instead of reacting to a beat to hell course with emergency repairs after the fact.
Next year, that's the course, it survives the day with minimal damage and everyone is happy.
Every couple years the crew can change/publish the "official" course for variety.
This keep racing in the poor weather viable.
As always FWIW....
The land is the state's land, if they issue a permit for the race and have no issue with the damage done that's really the end of it. Jorba or anyone else getting upset is technically irrelevant. I'm not saying that's a good thing but it is what it is.
Jorba has no authority to tell the state what to do/allow/permit other than as an advisory role and that requires the state to agree to listen.
This is why IMO this issue is so sticky. It requires the cooperation of roughly 3 (or more) entities working together to make it work and even more when you consider that some parks/trails are state, some are county and some are local town property.
Racing is an important part of the sport and unfortunately hard on the trails IF the courses aren't designed and set up with care. Much of Jungle is well drained rock trails but some of it isn't. The challenge is courses need to be a minimum length to be viable for a race.
Perhaps a workable solution is this:
Don't leave the course design up to the promoters.....
Since this seems to be a recurring issue (at this location particularly) perhaps a solution would be for the local trail crew to proactively create a race course capable of withstanding races in poor conditions yet long/diverse enough to satisfy the needs of the race, getting buy in from the state (or whomever manages the area) to say to promoters: "Yes, you can have your race here but this is your course, take it or leave it, do not deviate"
The promoters may welcome this approach because this cuts out a lot of labor on their part creating the course.
The trail crew can then put some proactive effort in, with the support of jorba to make sure that course is maintained, armored and has proper drainage over the course of the year instead of reacting to a beat to hell course with emergency repairs after the fact.
Next year, that's the course, it survives the day with minimal damage and everyone is happy.
Every couple years the crew can change/publish the "official" course for variety.
This keep racing in the poor weather viable.
As always FWIW....
Red Mosquito
Formerly RLB the Scrapple Boy
I have no stake in this, other than throwing some hours at TM when life allows, and wanting MTB to succeed here.
With that said, I think this is a tall ask for volunteers, who are usually spread very thin to begin with. To me, all of the burden of responsibility conducting a race should be on the race promoters. Asking JORBA to advocate for racing when the outcome is often similar to what we’re seeing here in this thread is like defending everything said by your drunk uncle at Thanksgiving.
Ashcor
Well-Known Member
That's a short sited POV. Jorba is complaining because they are left holding the bag to fix the trails after a race. I don't think having Jorba volunteers for an area be proactive and design an official race loop is a hardship at all. It solves a number of issues.
1) The bulk of trail maintenance falls on them anyway. Regardless of cause.
2) Right now all they can do is bitch about the situation on social media after the fact because they have no agency to enforce anything. Clearly that's not working as we've see/heard it all before.
3) Who better than the local trail crew knows the trails best and is in the best position to create a race course that can handle a race in adverse weather? It is possible. Nobody is asking for new trails to be purpose built, just a course to be laid out and over the course of a season re-enforced/fixed/prepared. I'm sure most local trail maintainers could do that in their sleep.
4) It create collaboration instead of conflict. Trades proactive planning for reactive response.
5) Like all good compromises, everyone loses a little but gains a lot. Trail crew's get a little more work/responsibility up front but less work after and some agency in the situation, Race promoters lose choice of course but also has less setup work. In the end racing still happens and trails stay intact.
This is a reoccurring theme and "Just get a rain date" is not as easy as it sound due to a number of issue.
In the end what does everyone want? Racing to continue and trails to stay intact. I've offered a proactive solution. If someone has a better one hey let's hear it. More ideas promote better solutions.
serviceguy
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone has really any authority to mandate anything in this matter, other than the State through the Park Management that is. It's my understanding that in most cases JORBA has a great relationship with the Park management and could explore the possibility to be added as an actor in deciding if the race can be happening or not thought the JORBA rep that knows the park and what it takes to fix it afterward. If the same person of group of person is willing to draw a race course over the existing trails that would minimize damage in case of wet conditions and maximize the quality of the race, that would be even better.
But this is probably a discussion that JORBA should have internally to determine if, where and when action should be taken. That said I wouldn't necessarily call reporting what happened bitching about...
But this is probably a discussion that JORBA should have internally to determine if, where and when action should be taken. That said I wouldn't necessarily call reporting what happened bitching about...