Keto

TLDR generalization with the understanding that I am completely unaware of what the OP or anyone reading this knows about the topics below:

Keto works 100%. So does Paleo. The caveat, as with all things health related, is that YMMV. No 2 people are biochemically the same. Everything you eat has a cascading effect on multiple systems in your body that's constantly adapting to achieve homeostasis. You really should have a solid understanding (not a vague idea) of what it is that you are doing to yourself (or not doing) when you eat (don't eat) something, or take (don't take) a supplement, or try something someone you know happened to read or hear about from the kid working the counter at the local Vitamin Shoppe.

Since this is a diet related thread, I highly recommend educating yourself on your the role your diet plays in your HPTA axis, thyroid, hormonal and metabolic pathways before you go down this road.

Also play devil's advocate with yourself and research in reverse. Why isn't everyone doing this? Why do people who start down these paths revert back? What are the most common issues people experience? Take all of this second/third hand information with a grain of salt. Read some studies. Read a few more. Then make a decision based on all the information you've gathered.

In the end it may work out well for you, then again, it may not. Either way, good luck.
 
The Kalmyk said:
@Blair here is your answer only I use an oven and a ruler

@Monkey Soup the age ole argument. Is cancer genetic or metabolic? Im not a doctor or scientist to say whether glucose is a transporter of cancerous cells. However the scientist and doctors that support the ketogetic diet believe it does.
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There is no believing in science, there is fact. Glucose does not transport cancer cells.

Those Drs., or perhaps the issue, is being confused. For metastasis to occur, it’s all about the blood. Angiogenesis happens, tumor cells proliferate, then spread via the blood. Glucose is important because cancer cells are normal cells that have lost cell cycle control, differentiation, and apoptosis regulation, and are proliferating out of control. Cells that are growing at that rate control require more glucose, therefore cancer cells have hijacked the glucose transfer system, and those transfer proteins (along with many, many aspects of cellular metabolism) are way up-regulated in cancer cells. I think people are confusing glucose transfer vs. transport of cells, big difference.

Having said all of that, I need to cut some weight, and will be looking into the science behind this keto diet myself as well, sound interesting from what I’ve read, but also a lot of work.
 
Monkey Soup said:
There is no believing in science, there is fact. Glucose does not transport cancer cells.

Those Drs., or perhaps the issue, is being confused. For metastasis to occur, it’s all about the blood. Angiogenesis happens, tumor cells proliferate, then spread via the blood. Glucose is important because cancer cells are normal cells that have lost cell cycle control, differentiation, and apoptosis regulation, and are proliferating out of control. Cells that are growing at that rate control require more glucose, therefore cancer cells have hijacked the glucose transfer system, and those transfer proteins (along with many, many aspects of cellular metabolism) are way up-regulated in cancer cells. I think people are confusing glucose transfer vs. transport of cells, big difference.

Having said all of that, I need to cut some weight, and will be looking into the science behind this keto diet myself as well, sound interesting from what I’ve read, but also a lot of work.
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Yeah no transporting going on. I was incorrect in saying that. Since science is fact. What is the fact- cancer is a metabolic disease or genetic disease?
 
The Kalmyk said:
Yeah no transporting going on. I was incorrect in saying that. Since science is fact. What is the fact- cancer is a metabolic disease or genetic disease?
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There is a lot that we know, and a lot we still don’t know. What we do know is that there is a definite genetic link. In some types of cancers (like breast), they can even check to see if you have the genetic and molecular marker (why some women like Angelina Jolie choose to go double mastectomy before they’re even sick). Also, the mechanism for loss of cell cycle control is at the gene level, and subsequent immune system evasion is a molecular process. Having said that, your body clears pre-cancerous cell all the time, if it didn’t, we would all be dying of cancer. Your systems overall well-being and health definitely play into immune health. If you live an unhealthy lifestyle, you’re definitely at greater risk. Your endocrine (also genetically linked) and metabolic health does play into your overall risk factors. They are doing a lot of scientific study into this aspect of cancer not only as prevention, but to also keep people in remission.
 
soulchild said:
TLDR generalization with the understanding that I am completely unaware of what the OP or anyone reading this knows about the topics below:

Keto works 100%. So does Paleo. The caveat, as with all things health related, is that YMMV. No 2 people are biochemically the same. Everything you eat has a cascading effect on multiple systems in your body that's constantly adapting to achieve homeostasis. You really should have a solid understanding (not a vague idea) of what it is that you are doing to yourself (or not doing) when you eat (don't eat) something, or take (don't take) a supplement, or try something someone you know happened to read or hear about from the kid working the counter at the local Vitamin Shoppe.

Since this is a diet related thread, I highly recommend educating yourself on your the role your diet plays in your HPTA axis, thyroid, hormonal and metabolic pathways before you go down this road.

Also play devil's advocate with yourself and research in reverse. Why isn't everyone doing this? Why do people who start down these paths revert back? What are the most common issues people experience? Take all of this second/third hand information with a grain of salt. Read some studies. Read a few more. Then make a decision based on all the information you've gathered.

In the end it may work out well for you, then again, it may not. Either way, good luck.
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Thanks, yes so far my goal is to gain the health benefits from what I've heard/read lose a few pounds, etc. my grandfather had diabetes and prostate cancer so I'm probably more inclined to get it however I'm also the fittest man in the family. I feel like that stuff is diet related where I could see a benefit. So far so good. @gtluke what are your thoughts on sugar right before exercise? As in, if you had to cheat a little is that the best time? I was looking at a hammer bar at 2pm and have had 0 carbs all day but this bar has 17g, then I rode for an hour and 20 with several PRs.
 

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The Kalmyk said:
the age ole argument. Is cancer genetic or metabolic? Im not a doctor or scientist to say whether glucose is a transporter of cancerous cells. However the scientist and doctors that support the ketogetic diet believe it does.
Click to expand...

Like MS posted, the notion that glucose transports cancer cells is nonsense. If you want to advocate for a diet fine, but don't use ridiculous scare tactics to try to tell people that carbs cause cancer. Even on a keto diet you still have glucose in your blood - glucose is necessary for life.
 
rick81721 said:
Like MS posted, the notion that glucose transports cancer cells is nonsense. If you want to advocate for a diet fine, but don't use ridiculous scare tactics to try to tell people that carbs cause cancer. Even on a keto diet you still have glucose in your blood - glucose is necessary for life.
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Cancer cells love blood glucose . No transporting going on- I was wrong.


I went back to double check if I said "carbs cause cancer" but it wasn't there. I think the scare tactics are in people's head, lol.
 
The Kalmyk said:
Cancer cells love blood glucose . No transporting going on- I was wrong.


I went back to double check if I said "carbs cause cancer" but it wasn't there. I think the scare tactics are in people's head, lol.
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Hey K I didn't mean you, I was referring to whomever was making that claim.
 
If Keto works, why is Jimmy Moore so fat? Someone explain that to me. 🙂

My 2cents on keto:

1) Long term it can have issues just as other diets (like veganism), lack of micronutrients and and too much of "bad" but allowed foods. It's super easy for the fat content to be consist of hydrogenated oils. This is a big issue in the Keto world as people often just eat meat and cheese and leave out the veggies. Romaine lettuce isn't veggies people. The meat consumed tends to be the muscle meat and not the offal which is where the nutrition primarily is in animals. Want to eat like our ancestors? Eat the whole animal.

2) Part of the weight loss is caloric restriction whether you want to believe it or not. Skipping the starches/grains in meals is a lot of calories. Luke mentioned 300 calories in the tortilla, that's huge and and adds up.

3) Most grains have no nutritional value, that's why they're fortified. And if you're unlucky like me you find out that fortification includes Folic Acid which not everyone can break down properly into Folate...

4) Keto doesn't work for everyone. Females are a huge group where there's issues. Even intermittent fasting windows change from the standard male 16/8 to 14/10 for women. Or if you have other hormonal issues the lack of carbs can screw you up. (Been there done that). Or minor allergies or food intolerances cause issues as the type of antagonist is increased.

5) What the caveman ate is only a basic template. The argument is better for cooked tubers bringing on modern man than cooked meat. The amount of nutrition in cooked tubers are very high and humans have been eating them for a long time. We have the amylase to breakdown tubers where primates do not. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's not good. However twinkies and most processed foods pretty much are shit...

6) The China study was done with fake data, that ship has sailed. The Lipid hypothesis has failed. The information on food (and the gut) is increasing at a huge rate. We've probably learned more in the last 10 years than we have in the past 100.

7) Keto is shown to help in multiple types of cancer. There's certain types where it has no affect, maybe brain but I don't recall. I don't believe there's any Keto vs Traditional methods however there is data of Keto + Traditional being much better than Traditional alone.

I'm not saying Keto doesn't work, there's a million success stories. I'd be doing it now if I wasn't under doctor's orders to restrict eggs & dairy to none. But you need to do it right for it to work long term, heck even short term. You can't cheat.

And just remember, Luke gets all his information from the the guy who hosted Fear Factor. 🙂
 
Santapez said:
If Keto works, why is Jimmy Moore so fat? Someone explain that to me. 🙂


And just remember, Luke gets all his information from the the guy who hosted Fear Factor. 🙂
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These are great! It's hard for me to take Jimmy Moore seriously for that exact reason. I'm wondering if he even considers CiCo.
 
gtluke said:
Last I looked there were ZERO vegans who have ever finished the tour de France ever. EVER.
What does that tell you?
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Was almost buying it until you used a roadie reference to prove your point. Vegans have completed the Tour Divide and the Iditarod, both significantly harder races.
 
jimvreeland said:
Was almost buying it until you used a roadie reference to prove your point. Vegans have completed the Tour Divide and the Iditarod, both significantly harder races.
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Ha, good point. But those vegans practice year round having a miserable existence. So race week isn't much different.
 
Santapez said:
If Keto works, why is Jimmy Moore so fat? Someone explain that to me. 🙂

My 2cents on keto:

1) Long term it can have issues just as other diets (like veganism), lack of micronutrients and and too much of "bad" but allowed foods. It's super easy for the fat content to be consist of hydrogenated oils. This is a big issue in the Keto world as people often just eat meat and cheese and leave out the veggies. Romaine lettuce isn't veggies people. The meat consumed tends to be the muscle meat and not the offal which is where the nutrition primarily is in animals. Want to eat like our ancestors? Eat the whole animal.

2) Part of the weight loss is caloric restriction whether you want to believe it or not. Skipping the starches/grains in meals is a lot of calories. Luke mentioned 300 calories in the tortilla, that's huge and and adds up.

3) Most grains have no nutritional value, that's why they're fortified. And if you're unlucky like me you find out that fortification includes Folic Acid which not everyone can break down properly into Folate...

4) Keto doesn't work for everyone. Females are a huge group where there's issues. Even intermittent fasting windows change from the standard male 16/8 to 14/10 for women. Or if you have other hormonal issues the lack of carbs can screw you up. (Been there done that). Or minor allergies or food intolerances cause issues as the type of antagonist is increased.

5) What the caveman ate is only a basic template. The argument is better for cooked tubers bringing on modern man than cooked meat. The amount of nutrition in cooked tubers are very high and humans have been eating them for a long time. We have the amylase to breakdown tubers where primates do not. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's not good. However twinkies and most processed foods pretty much are shit...

6) The China study was done with fake data, that ship has sailed. The Lipid hypothesis has failed. The information on food (and the gut) is increasing at a huge rate. We've probably learned more in the last 10 years than we have in the past 100.

7) Keto is shown to help in multiple types of cancer. There's certain types where it has no affect, maybe brain but I don't recall. I don't believe there's any Keto vs Traditional methods however there is data of Keto + Traditional being much better than Traditional alone.

I'm not saying Keto doesn't work, there's a million success stories. I'd be doing it now if I wasn't under doctor's orders to restrict eggs & dairy to none. But you need to do it right for it to work long term, heck even short term. You can't cheat.

And just remember, Luke gets all his information from the the guy who hosted Fear Factor. 🙂
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Hey now, my first round on keto was in 1997, I think that was news radio days.
The pyramids predate potatos, they are from the new world. I'm not suggesting eating like a caveman. They didn't have grated cheese and sour cream, true staples of my life.
While some vegatables and fruit were available to prehistoric man, it was only for a month or two a year. Which is why I'm fine with taking breaks. I also miss eating French fries. Then again the only ancient fruits I can think of are low on the glycemic index. I'm drawing a blank on any ancient vegatables but I'm sure there are some. Onions? Maybe some roots if you're crafty. I'm sure they ate a shit ton of mushrooms. But I hate them.

Freakonomics is doing several episodes on how shit sugar is for you this month.
 
Some good stuff in here and also a lot of nonsense. Its super annoying to read "that's bullshit, do some research". If you have the (supposed) answers why not include them in your response?

A few people hit it on the head, that no single approach works for every single person. Do what's best for you, and who gives a shit what the person next to you is doing? People take offense when someone else has a different approach or viewpoint, because they feel like acceptance=validation.

No one has mentioned how the 60's the sugar industry apparently cherry picked data to say that saturated fat caused obesity and sugar did not play a significant role. This apparently helped to shape the current view that low fat = good. The article also mentions how a lot of pro-sugar research is industry funded.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html?_r=0
 
jimvreeland said:
Was almost buying it until you used a roadie reference to prove your point. Vegans have completed the Tour Divide and the Iditarod, both significantly harder races.
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Jim...as I remember....dont you power most of your rides with Swedish fish and monster energy?
 
Being this is a cycling forum I'll give my .03 as it applies to cycling. If your goals are weight loss or low intensity cycling (below 60% of LT or FTP) a carb. restricted diet is fine. However if you are racing or training at high intencities you need carbs.

Think of it this way fat is a slow burning fuel like Hickory in a wood stove, carbs. are like throwing gas on that fire, they don't last long but burn hot. For the racer winter/off season is a great time for a low carb diet 50-60g of quality carb (not a Snickers bar) when training load and intensity increase so do the carbs 70-100g per day depending on body weight.

One thing I think confuses racers when reading articles about a low or no carb diet is the reference to cycling as Endurance. Endurance is generally considered a consistent effort below 70% of LT/FTP, I have no experience with the real long ultra type events like Jim V. but in events like NUE's and other events called endurance you will be consistently at or above those levels for extended periods of time.

Remember Diet is how you eat on a consistent day to day basis, Dieting is something you do for short periods of time to in a feeble attempt to reverse the effects of a bad Diet.
 
Joe J said:
Being this is a cycling forum I'll give my .03 as it applies to cycling. If your goals are weight loss or low intensity cycling (below 60% of LT or FTP) a carb. restricted diet is fine. However if you are racing or training at high intencities you need carbs.

Think of it this way fat is a slow burning fuel like Hickory in a wood stove, carbs. are like throwing gas on that fire, they don't last long but burn hot. For the racer winter/off season is a great time for a low carb diet 50-60g of quality carb (not a Snickers bar) when training load and intensity increase so do the carbs 70-100g per day depending on body weight.

One thing I think confuses racers when reading articles about a low or no carb diet is the reference to cycling as Endurance. Endurance is generally considered a consistent effort below 70% of LT/FTP, I have no experience with the real long ultra type events like Jim V. but in events like NUE's and other events called endurance you will be consistently at or above those levels for extended periods of time.

Remember Diet is how you eat on a consistent day to day basis, Dieting is something you do for short periods of time to in a feeble attempt to reverse the effects of a bad Diet.
Click to expand...

This is my observation on the keto diet as well. I mentioned it in one of the 5 pages but my overall peak power is down, but I can make my slightly diminished power for seemingly forever now. I don't do any actual datalogging, but I feel that because I was able to do that, that even off the diet my endurance was up. What you mentioned was basically exactly what I heard from an MMA coach on some podcast I listed to this year. Bunch of athletes tried keto and eventually added in 100-200g of carbs because the fighters felt a decrease of power. But an MMA fight is 15 minutes. I think the keto diet fits well for those doing 4+ hour races. Or those of us that don't race and just like to ride. Added benefit of being able to go on a 5 hour ride and not bring any food.
 
For racing, shouldn’t you also be carb depleting and carb loading prior to your event?

So for those of you out there with access to Pubmed, there are some interesting journal articles out there. Most focus around the keto diet as a means to control pediatric epilepsy (interesting in and of itself). Seems like this diet has been around since the time of the ancient Greeks, who observed a cause and effect relationship between fasting and a decrease the incidence of seizures. Anyway, there is one very recent article on there where they divided a group of men into a keto diet group and western diet group and put them on a resistance training program. End of the day, the keto group saw a much bigger increase in testosterone production vs. the western diet group. So some of you fuckers that can’t get it up, maybe ease up on the fries and stop blaming the seat on your bike.
 
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