Opinion of Hartshorne

[gobriango]

So, Hartshorne was my local riding area from 94-05 and I have done more laps around it than anywhere I have ever ridden. I was able to get a ride in on my visit to NJ for the holidays. It has been 6 yrs since I have ridden Hartshorne. So I was super eager and excited to get back to my roots.
Outside of the massive work that got done to clear the trails after Sandy, the trails seemed soooooo tired. Other than a few very short reroutes, it seems that nothing has gotten done. The trails are essentially the same as they were in 94, with alittle bit more erosion thrown in. It was so frustrating to stop along the trail and look around and wonder what Hartshorne would look like if all the available terrain were actually used. It's crazy to think that you still can't do an actual lap of just singletrack, without turning around and going the other way.
In the 90's the way that Monmouth County Park System ran the trails, totally worked. It doesn't seem that way anymore. Why not let the largest user group, create new trails and work on existing trails ? The time has come (10 yrs ago) for this to happen.
All in all, I miss Hartshorne and you guys are lucky to have her. Even if she has been passed around to all of your friends.

 

[Dusty the Whale]

Lol at the last line.

But I love <3shorne. Recently moved up north and have MANY trails within :40min drive so I don't venture south anymore. But it was my favorite when I lived in Woodbridge & South Amboy

 

[BiknBen]

You sum up my thoughts of Hartshorne pretty well. I used to love it there. Tight twisting and undulating terrain. Challenging climbs and fun little descents. An occasional lookout to invite us to stop and enjoy the view.

Years and years of continued use has broken the place down. Any maintenance is not coming close to keeping up. Erosion has gone unchecked. As the roots become exposed and steps develop, users just go around them leading to wider trails and further erosion.

I put it all on the County Parks Dept. They seem to ignore the high traffic from many different types of trail users. They force volunteers to take a 4-hour safety class before they are allowed to pick up a rake.

I gave up on the place long ago. Sure, If I lived in the area, I'd hit it. It used to be a destination and I traveled to it. Not much any more. If you find me there, it is to see good friends. Not for the park.

 

[Arwen's Mom]

Until this past week I had not been to Hartshorne in 11 years. I feel much the same as everyone else.

However, the gnarly root infested downs and ups are good practice and fun too, in a different way. And we dont go around them for the climbing. We hike a bike up if we cant ride it. The Hub and I feel no shame at all walking those sections and figure if we can ever ride up them it would be awesome. For now we are happy riding down them. But yes I do miss the hartshorne I loved in the past that was tight swoopy and fast.

 

[don]

This topic comes up every couple of months or so - usually I respond and sometimes not. I'll throw some quick notes of what I think is good and what I think needs some improvement for the new year. Who knows maybe this will be the year that some real shit happens over there.

• Training Class - I love how everyone harshes on the training class. Out of all the things that MCPS does, I think the training class is one of the best things. If more people knew what the f**k they were doing, you could get a lot more done. Actually there should be stages/levels and a training program. That way when there is a TM day - you can say Level 1 people - trimming. Level 2 - any water exits - clear out/groom. Level 3 - excavation/bench cutting/water exit builds. Level 4 - chainsaw, machinery use. trail design. The lanscape and contruction jobs I have had in the past - I'd have to get checked out on certain jobs - and for good reason. I'd be more than happy to take courses and/or test on each level. Being able to build strong sustainable trails mean that much to me.
• Lack of Hartshorne TM's - I think there were 2 this year. IDK, for a place like Harthsorne there should be like 1x/month. My guess is the MCPS looks at Hartshorne as just one of the many parks and gives it an even slice of the pie, TM wise. But I bet it gets more percentage of use than the others combined. We get emails about TM's at other parks, but I really don't have the time to care about them as shitty as that sounds. I'm not going to ride or hike them so why should I take half a Saturday to go work on them?
• Planning - Or maybe there is planning? I know when I show up for TM's - it's seems like the work list is thrown together. Some of the projects had me scratching my head. There should be a list of areas that need work the most and prioritize them. I have a mental list in my head. There are zones in there that are really good and fun but other sections that are a complete and utter mess. And it should be a group thing - have a walk-about take pics, and talk about how areas should be fixed. Our crew does it at a DJ zone and it works. There are maybe 3-4 of us but we get a ton of solid work done - but we talk about most changes and figure out which is smart and which isn't. And if there is planning from someone - before the TM get out the list. If I knew ahead what was being worked on I could hike in and take a good long look at what might be the best possible way to fix something. For our DJ spot, I'll think about things for a long time before picking up a shovel. Like anything preparation goes a long way.

Hartshorne is a great place but it's gotten beat up over the years. Back in the 90's, there were a lot less riders/hikers there and the trail building methods were essentially "rake and run". It would be great to get that place to it's potential. I don't have all the answers - but would love to help out. As it is, I get fustrated and head to the DJ zones to settle down. Once a month or more I'll take a tour in there have a little fun and wait...

 

[Frank]

• Training Class - I love how everyone harshes on the training class. Out of all the things that MCPS does, I think the training class is one of the best things. If more people knew what the f**k they were doing, you could get a lot more done. Actually there should be stages/levels and a training program. That way when there is a TM day - you can say Level 1 people - trimming. Level 2 - any water exits - clear out/groom. Level 3 - excavation/bench cutting/water exit builds. Level 4 - chainsaw, machinery use. trail design. The lanscape and contruction jobs I have had in the past - I'd have to get checked out on certain jobs - and for good reason. I'd be more than happy to take courses and/or test on each level. Being able to build strong sustainable trails mean that much to me.
• Lack of Hartshorne TM's - I think there were 2 this year. IDK, for a place like Harthsorne there should be like 1x/month. My guess is the MCPS looks at Hartshorne as just one of the many parks and gives it an even slice of the pie, TM wise. But I bet it gets more percentage of use than the others combined. We get emails about TM's at other parks, but I really don't have the time to care about them as shitty as that sounds. I'm not going to ride or hike them so why should I take half a Saturday to go work on them?
• Planning - Or maybe there is planning? I know when I show up for TM's - it's seems like the work list is thrown together. Some of the projects had me scratching my head. There should be a list of areas that need work the most and prioritize them. I have a mental list in my head. There are zones in there that are really good and fun but other sections that are a complete and utter mess. And it should be a group thing - have a walk-about take pics, and talk about how areas should be fixed. Our crew does it at a DJ zone and it works. There are maybe 3-4 of us but we get a ton of solid work done - but we talk about most changes and figure out which is smart and which isn't. And if there is planning from someone - before the TM get out the list. If I knew ahead what was being worked on I could hike in and take a good long look at what might be the best possible way to fix something. For our DJ spot, I'll think about things for a long time before picking up a shovel. Like anything preparation goes a long way.

This!

Great stuff Don!

If the core volunteer crew go out and assess the trails with photos and a proposed solution it may get some attention. This way the park folk have a actual list in front of them compiled by trusted volunteers, they may rise to the occasion and plan more dates.

 

[Norm]

Don,

That's a great post but a lot of what you say begs for a level of organization that many don't even see in their workplace, let alone a volunteer effort.

I like the idea of grades of TM ability. That would be great, and then you could even try to organize a TM session better if you knew that there were 1 level 4 guy as opposed to 3. If you end up with 1 level 4 guy and 19 level 1s, how much can you get done?

OTOH, sometimes people are giving up half a day to do TM and they just don't have the time to give up another half any more than every 6 months. If you say that someone needs to go to 2 sessions that cost half a day just to work on something more advanced than trimming bushes, I think you're going to lose a lot of people. Especially in this day & age where half the people who own houses end up building their own paver patios or installing a furnace themselves. Not pertinent, I know. But you get my point. I think.

Organization from the top is great in theory. I've done a few TMs with Kirt and CR, and he's really on top of everything. I think his approach is good, in that he's really friendly but when people ask what to do, he has no problem sending groups of people out to get done what needs to get done.

It must be the new year. This is a SOP conversation for post 1/1, right? ;-)

Don - want a challenge? Come up with a TM grade system. I'd be more than happy to try and help you implement it. Will it stick? Who knows. But maybe it does. Can't hurt to try.

 

[don]

This!

Great stuff Don!

If the core volunteer crew go out and assess the trails with photos and a proposed solution it may get some attention. This way the park folk have a actual list in front of them compiled by trusted volunteers, they may rise to the occasion and plan more dates.

Thanks Frank. I do need to step up this year a bit and maybe just taking some pics and posting them up might help. At the very least it could get people actually talking about what is good and bad about Hartshorne and what TM is needed to make it better rather than people saying - "Hartshorne could be sooo good but this and that sucks" Myself included with that. Might even get some ideas from people in other riding areas.

 

[don]

Don,

That's a great post but a lot of what you say begs for a level of organization that many don't even see in their workplace, let alone a volunteer effort.

I like the idea of grades of TM ability. That would be great, and then you could even try to organize a TM session better if you knew that there were 1 level 4 guy as opposed to 3. If you end up with 1 level 4 guy and 19 level 1s, how much can you get done?

OTOH, sometimes people are giving up half a day to do TM and they just don't have the time to give up another half any more than every 6 months. If you say that someone needs to go to 2 sessions that cost half a day just to work on something more advanced than trimming bushes, I think you're going to lose a lot of people. Especially in this day & age where half the people who own houses end up building their own paver patios or installing a furnace themselves. Not pertinent, I know. But you get my point. I think.

Organization from the top is great in theory. I've done a few TMs with Kirt and CR, and he's really on top of everything. I think his approach is good, in that he's really friendly but when people ask what to do, he has no problem sending groups of people out to get done what needs to get done.

It must be the new year. This is a SOP conversation for post 1/1, right? ;-)

Don - want a challenge? Come up with a TM grade system. I'd be more than happy to try and help you implement it. Will it stick? Who knows. But maybe it does. Can't hurt to try.

Thanks Norm

I was just throwing down thoughts and ideals mostly based on what I've experienced at TM's and from what we have done at DJ spots over the years. You are right in the organization comment and I should of thought of all the trails and volunteers for a MCPS TM day vs. our small DJ spot with just a few of us.

Thinking about it, another point (point 4) I would add to my original post is to just work on your local spots. A solid Hartshorne local will know the trails better than any park worker. They will know what areas get muddy and when and what zones get hit with too much vegitation growth (like the posts over the summer). They are probably also more flexable for work and training days. And most importantly, a local will be way more enthusiatic. It's a lot easier to bang out a shit-ton of work when you know you will be enjoing it on many rides and hikes.

And yeah, you are totally correct about people getting time to go out for TM's let alone training and I apologize for sounding like a deck not thinking of that. To add one more to point 4 (point 4b) I think maybe the whole MCPS TM model could be changed up or modified. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but Jdog and the 6 Mile guys bang out work during the week and I have seen TM's posted on MTBNJ for after work during the summer. I know I could get out pretty easily during the mornings on weekdays and I have no problem working solo (actually prefer it at times). Have core crews go out on off hours and then save big projects for TM days. But like a construction job - you would need one person on big TM days just planning the jobs and checking on people and not even picking up a tool. It's just way too much. And as far as having a MCPS employee with a volunteer during the small TM's - don't they do work during the week? Maybe I am simplifying it but I would think I could just drive over to Hartshorne, meet a MCPS employee when they are working and work on a project along side or even just sign-in / sign-out while they are at the park?

For a TM grade system - I could put down some of my ideas but I wouldn't write that in stone until others with better experience than me signed off on it like Kirt, Frank, Jdog and the many other diggers out there. It's kinda funny, with DJ crews I've talked to, a "grade" system develops on it's own. At our spot - I mainly do drainage, transplant, and earth moving. Another guy handles take-off and landing shaping/packing. Another guy is best on getting berms shaped up. And we all talk amongst ourselves about ideas/changes. With text and instagram we don't even need to be there at the same time. I agree it would be interesting to get something written down. Will put some thought into it before I post anything.

PS --- to answer your question: "If you end up with 1 level 4 guy and 19 level 1s, how much can you get done?" - send 4 groups of 4 (16 people) level 1's out with pruners/rakes and get a big sweep of clean up done (there is ALWAYS things to prune and rake). 1 Level 4 guy goes out with 3 level 1's for a mini training session on an area that needs re-route/armoring/drainage. 🙂

 

[Frank]

Don - want a challenge? Come up with a TM grade system. I'd be more than happy to try and help you implement it. Will it stick? Who knows. But maybe it does. Can't hurt to try.

That would be interesting to try and impliment, not that I don't like the idea, I think it would be badass. What's an accepted training for the state may not be acceptable by Monmouth Cty. or Somerset Cty. for example. Sadly, not all of the park systems are on the same page with regards to trail standards either.

Thanks Frank. I do need to step up this year a bit and maybe just taking some pics and posting them up might help. At the very least it could get people actually talking about what is good and bad about Hartshorne and what TM is needed to make it better rather than people saying - "Hartshorne could be sooo good but this and that sucks" Myself included with that. Might even get some ideas from people in other riding areas.

Keep at it bro, and don't let it get to you. It takes a while to get the trust of the bosses of the candy store.

 

[pooriggy]

Thanks Frank. I do need to step up this year a bit and maybe just taking some pics and posting them up might help. At the very least it could get people actually talking about what is good and bad about Hartshorne and what TM is needed to make it better rather than people saying - "Hartshorne could be sooo good but this and that sucks" Myself included with that. Might even get some ideas from people in other riding areas.

We all know there is a lot of work to be done at Hartshorne, posting up pics here and discussing the erosion problems on this forum does nothing.

That may have came out bluntly but I know u Don, so you should understand thats not a diss at you. Getting in to do TM's on a more regular basis revolves around approval from the MCPS. Start with the trail's volunteer coordinator by selling the idea of offering monthly TM's guaranteeing 5 or more park system trained volunteers a month to repair erosion issues.

Also the squeeky wheel gets the oil in the MCPS. If your unhappy about the trail conditions at Hartshorne then make a phone call and let them know about it. Voicing a complaint here is like preaching to the choir.

The MCPS is not in the business to provide kick ass trails for mountain bikers however they do offer a wide variety of outdoor rec for Monmouth county citizens. If you feel the ball is being dropped on trail maintence at Hartshorne then politely let them know that.

 

[GratefulRider]

since we are being blunt....

is it possible that MCPS doesn't want a bunch of volunteers doing TM because it endangers their job?

more to the point...I love Hartshorne. it's constantly changing. Sometimes it's better than others but traffic and erosion keep it fresh. If a section gets too screwed up, the county employees do what they're paid to do...fix it. and I think they do a pretty decent job.

I don't think it could ever be "amazing" for mtb. I think given the size of the park, the density of the foliage, and the amount of traffic from other trail users it would be dangerous to have fast(er) flowier trails. Appreciate the park for what it is and have fun.

JM

 

[wonderturtle]

it's constantly changing. Sometimes it's better than others but traffic and erosion keep it fresh.

thats a different way of thinking about it. can see your point of view. the park does seem different every time you go. it IS constantly changing. I would say it just gets worse and worse. but it is changing. so, your "half full" perspective is, perhaps, a better way of looking at things.

If a section gets too screwed up, the county employees do what they're paid to do...fix it. and I think they do a pretty decent job.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on that one. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Brian Snyder]

uummmmmm.................

 

[don]

We all know there is a lot of work to be done at Hartshorne, posting up pics here and discussing the erosion problems on this forum does nothing.

That may have came out bluntly but I know u Don, so you should understand thats not a diss at you. Getting in to do TM's on a more regular basis revolves around approval from the MCPS. Start with the trail's volunteer coordinator by selling the idea of offering monthly TM's guaranteeing 5 or more park system trained volunteers a month to repair erosion issues.

Also the squeeky wheel gets the oil in the MCPS. If your unhappy about the trail conditions at Hartshorne then make a phone call and let them know about it. Voicing a complaint here is like preaching to the choir.

The MCPS is not in the business to provide kick ass trails for mountain bikers however they do offer a wide variety of outdoor rec for Monmouth county citizens. If you feel the ball is being dropped on trail maintence at Hartshorne then politely let them know that.

Iggy - I know it is absolutely no diss at all and I appreciate the straight forwardness. Deep down, I know you speak the truth. I think a knee jerk reaction for me is to see a post of what is wrong with Hartshorne and then I write what I think would work best or be a rad thing for that place. Anyone that goes back on my posts will see that pattern.

To be honest, I probably don't have the patience or the time to do what has to be done to get it there. If I knew it would be worth the effort, I might. But... I help out at a dj zone and that place has been firing on all cylinders with a small crew. I get my passion for digging and creativity out and enjoy the ride it offers. I know good trails at Hartshorne are not on any important lists for the mcps. We mtn bikers are a tiny group to the overall user base they have. The TM emails for Hartshorne are minute compared to all the other emails that come thru for various activities/events.

And if the dj spots fizzle out, I would probably try to rent some land in the area and build some freeride/jump zone. Or when I get too old to ride that stuff I am hoping I will be up in Vermont and will help them out on all the great xc networks they have without worry about jumping thru hoops to be able to dig the way I want.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

 

[jdog]

I will only add that the potential here seems endless. I wish we as a user group had the freedom that I have earned at 6mr.

 

[pooriggy]

see u in vermont in 25yrs🙂

 

[Arwen's Mom]

I will only add that the potential here seems endless. I wish we as a user group had the freedom that I have earned at 6mr.

I put the emphasis on the word EARNED here. And how did you earn it? Perhaps your success at 6M can be used to help at Hartshorne???

Just another AM random thought 🙄

Here's another perspective:
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

If we CAN change it, lets do so. If we cant, like was said previouly, accept it, and still have fun with it.

Mr. AM was getting a little bored on his bike. Took him to hartshorne an he got all fired up again. So the place still has some merit even as is. I like fast flowy trails as much as anyone. Truly dislike climbing, especially technical climbs, but I see hartshorne as a place where I can get a good workout, work on my tech climbing abilities, and still have the reward of a few fast flowy or downhillish runs. Look at it as a training camp.

Does it need help? we can all agree it does. Now that the bickering is over...what positive steps do we as a group take to get it done?

 

[don]

I will only add that the potential here seems endless. I wish we as a user group had the freedom that I have earned at 6mr.

Maybe someday - I know that a few dedicated builders could make this place very fun. I still need to get to 6mr to check out the work you boys have done.

see u in vermont in 25yrs🙂

I'm hoping within 10 to have at least semi-residence up there. I'll be too old in 25, but who knows probably will be still riding, haha. Will show you the goods when it happens :thumbs:

I put the emphasis on the word EARNED here. And how did you earn it? Perhaps your success at 6M can be used to help at Hartshorne???

Just another AM random thought 🙄

Here's another perspective:
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

If we CAN change it, lets do so. If we cant, like was said previouly, accept it, and still have fun with it.

Mr. AM was getting a little bored on his bike. Took him to hartshorne an he got all fired up again. So the place still has some merit even as is. I like fast flowy trails as much as anyone. Truly dislike climbing, especially technical climbs, but I see hartshorne as a place where I can get a good workout, work on my tech climbing abilities, and still have the reward of a few fast flowy or downhillish runs. Look at it as a training camp.

Does it need help? we can all agree it does. Now that the bickering is over...what positive steps do we as a group take to get it done?

I guess, keep on going to TM's and showing MCPS that we as mtn bikers can get work done and more importantly done right. Also, Iggy's post about the squeky wheel and peppering with emails could help.

On a side note there is flow at Hartshorne. The loop I do takes out all the "punch in the groin" climbs and is a lot of fun.

AM - I know I still owe you a ride/meetup/session - too damn cold and busy right now but it's on my list.

 

[SmooveP]

Another viewpoint from someone who has called Hartshorne my home park for 20-some years:

- Not everyone is a devotee to the "flow" thing. Yeah, the fast and swoopy parts are great, but I personally get more satisfaction from making a gnarly climb. I'm more into the "variety" thing, I guess.

- The climbs at Hartshorne aren't that difficult. I'm mid-50's and ride a fatbike fer crissakes. Most days I make 'em all. Ride more often and try harder.

- I understand the issue of sustainability, but sustainability is a relative term. I did trail maintenance back in the early 90s when Wally Tunison was the lead civilian. Some of those trails that we built back then have held up pretty well. Compare that to say, Allaire, where because of the soil, a trail might get pretty chewed up after 3-5 years. There are sidewalls on some trails at Allaire that are 4 feet high. None of the Hartshorne trails are currently that bad. (I know, the old 3 Hills trail was like that, if there are any other old timers here)

- The bigger issue at Hartshorne is the widening of some trails by people going around the hard parts. Maybe some parallel logs along the trail edges would help?

- I hate to say this, but most of the trails that have been closed were some of my favorites, and the new ones cut in the last half dozen years or so are just boring. The pitch is gone, and there's a consistent lack of all of the things that make a trail interesting to me: rocks, roots, logs, whoops, etc. This is not meant to be a knock on anyone who helped build them. I'm sure that they're that way for a reason.

Because of these things, I dread any large scale changes to the place. Please just wait 10 or 20 years until I'm dead or too old to ride there anymore. 😉

Cheers,
Pat