Kingdom Trails trail closures

Captain Brainstorm

Captain Brainstorm

Well-Known Member
Norm said:
I do find this ironic given that NY/NJ brought almost $600M in tourist income to Vermont in 2022. That translates to almost $1000 per person in the state of Vermont.

I know these sorts of facts are pointless in a discussion like this. But tourism is 1 of the top 3 sources of income in the state, the other 2 of course benefitting from that tourist dollar in the form of hospitals & insurance.

Not saying that people from NY/NJ aren't assholes. I mean, we often are.

But you ask a great question. What's this system look like in 20 years?
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As someone that spends at least 1/3 of the year in VT, NY/NJ assholes are met in equal measure by the COVID-induced influx of Massholes and the Quebecoise. A lot of the resentment comes from the "locals", and by "locals" I mean the NY, NJ, Massholes, and others (there's a surprising amount of Californians) who moved in as residents over the last 10 years and fancy themselves as real Vermonters now. Its all not as straight forward as it seems, its complicated.

As more and more native Vermonters cash-out to the influx of wealthy flatlanders, you're going to see more trails on private land pulled. The only places that will "win" are the places where the trails are built on land owned by the local land trusts, in partnership with the town and local MTBVT chapter.
 
stb222

stb222

Love Drunk
Jerk Squad
Ian F said:
Perhaps... but I'm not sure the landowners are affected by that tourist income. At least not directly. Now if the local municipalities were to grant tax breaks for those who allow recreation on their properties... Hmm...

I'm currently working in NH again, so as soon as KT opens, I'll head up for a day trip and see how things play out. I'm already planning a route from town up around Burke Mtn towards the northern network. Losing that section of White School really sux, although I rode New School last year and it was ok. Then back-track on White School to get to Farm Junk and others.
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and @Norm Does someone have an example of a situation where a private land owner benefits from allowing a trail on their land? Directly or indirectly.
 
Norm

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
Captain Brainstorm said:
As someone that spends at least 1/3 of the year in VT, NY/NJ assholes are met in equal measure by the COVID-induced influx of Massholes and the Quebecoise. A lot of the resentment comes from the "locals", and by "locals" I mean the NY, NJ, Massholes, and others (there's a surprising amount of Californians) who moved in as residents over the last 10 years and fancy themselves as real Vermonters now. Its all not as straight forward as it seems, its complicated.
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I recently saw a map of the US that showed what %% of people who live in the state were born there. Vermont is one of the lowest numbers at something like 50-60%. A huge number of that population would not qualify as a "native" Vermonter. I think only a few states were lower than Vermont.

Great point about the land slowly being taken away.
 
Norm

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
stb222 said:
and @Norm Does someone have an example of a situation where a private land owner benefits from allowing a trail on their land? Directly or indirectly.
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The only case I could think of is the people who rent out their houses to us. It's of far more AirBnb value if the trail goes right to the place you're staying.

Otherwise I honestly see no benefit other than it making you feel part of the community - which isn't nothing. But is it really enough? Elmo Shrug.
 
johnbryanpeters

johnbryanpeters

Well-Known Member
MissJR said:
there's a couple of "schools" .. was wondering how much of that patch was pulled... and how you would even get to some of those trails over there without a "school" trail...
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You have to use Darling Hill Rd.

ArcGIS Web Application

maps.vcgi.vermont.gov maps.vcgi.vermont.gov

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Norm

Norm

Mayor McCheese
Team MTBNJ Halter's
MissJR said:
there's a couple of "schools" .. was wondering how much of that patch was pulled... and how you would even get to some of those trails over there without a "school" trail...
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Not much. As @Ian F showed, just the bit between the bottom of Moose Alley and Farm Junk. You can access it through Wares Daves then back via White School.

Honestly that doesn't change too much. Back in the day you could do Moose Alley, then hit Farm Junk etc on the way back to town. Now that they have Moose Alley & Moose Haven, most people limp back to town and save Farm Junk for another day.

And while it does suck to lose Flower Brook, the connector up top that they completed at the end of July is just awesome work. The hardest bit of this will be that at the end of the Moose Haven runs, you'll need to climb all the way back up to the gazebo to ride trails back to town.

Or the road but that's a lousy idea.

It'll be fine.
 
R

roc

Well-Known Member
Captain Brainstorm said:
As someone that spends at least 1/3 of the year in VT, NY/NJ assholes are met in equal measure by the COVID-induced influx of Massholes and the Quebecoise. A lot of the resentment comes from the "locals", and by "locals" I mean the NY, NJ, Massholes, and others (there's a surprising amount of Californians) who moved in as residents over the last 10 years and fancy themselves as real Vermonters now. Its all not as straight forward as it seems, its complicated.

As more and more native Vermonters cash-out to the influx of wealthy flatlanders, you're going to see more trails on private land pulled. The only places that will "win" are the places where the trails are built on land owned by the local land trusts, in partnership with the town and local MTBVT chapter.
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I get such a kick out of people who get upset about the newer residents. Unless those native Vermonters are Abenaki, they came from somewhere else also.


Still sucks that landowners pull the land.
 
don

don

Well-Known Member
https://www.traileaffectpodcast.com...or-the-vermont-mountain-bike-association-121/ This came out a couple weeks ago and is a great listen even if you don't ride in Vermont.

One of the main things I remember (and might help in the future of KT) was the Use Value Appraisal program. Land owners currently get a tax break if you farm or log your land vs develop it. It sounds like VMBA are working on getting recreational use added to the list. Nick Bennette starts talking about it around the 38 minute mark and explains it way better and with more detail.
 
johnbryanpeters

johnbryanpeters

Well-Known Member
don said:
https://www.traileaffectpodcast.com...or-the-vermont-mountain-bike-association-121/ This came out a couple weeks ago and is a great listen even if you don't ride in Vermont.

One of the main things I remember (and might help in the future of KT) was the Use Value Appraisal program. Land owners currently get a tax break if you farm or log your land vs develop it. It sounds like VMBA are working on getting recreational use added to the list. Nick Bennette starts talking about it around the 38 minute mark and explains it way better and with more detail.
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I wouldn't sign up for Use Value on a bet. I don't want bureaucrats telling me how to manage my land. Most of the big KT properties, on which the trails are, are in land use and the logging that they do is horrific. At KT, ride the north end of White School to see the worst of it.
 
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don

don

Well-Known Member
johnbryanpeters said:
I wouldn't sign up for Use Value on a bet. I don't want bureaucrats telling me how to manage my land. Most of the big KT properties, on which the trails are, are in land use and the logging that they do is horrific. At KT, ride the north end of White School to see the worst of it.
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I read the podcast info as that if I am a VT landowner and want to donate part of my land for trail (and it's on a decided amount of feet in an agreed area of my property) I can take advantage of the tax cut vs farming or logging my land.

I am surprised the logging was that bad in KT. I would think Vermont logging practices would be against clear cutting large open spaces and leaving it in a horrific state. I haven't been to KT but in Stowe they had some pretty large open areas but those may have been from a gnarly storm that came thru and dropped a bunch of trees about 5 years ago. When forests are logged properly don't they become stronger against large storms?
 
johnbryanpeters

johnbryanpeters

Well-Known Member
don said:
I read the podcast info as that if I am a VT landowner and want to donate part of my land for trail (and it's on a decided amount of feet in an agreed area of my property) I can take advantage of the tax cut vs farming or logging my land.

I am surprised the logging was that bad in KT. I would think Vermont logging practices would be against clear cutting large open spaces and leaving it in a horrific state. I haven't been to KT but in Stowe they had some pretty large open areas but those may have been from a gnarly storm that came thru and dropped a bunch of trees about 5 years ago. When forests are logged properly don't they become stronger against large storms?
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No, they don't "become stronger". They were managing themselves very well before humans came along.
 
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soundz

soundz

The Hat
Team MTBNJ Halter's
stb222 said:
and @Norm Does someone have an example of a situation where a private land owner benefits from allowing a trail on their land? Directly or indirectly.
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I think @KenS made some good points here:

KenS said:
The impact of eco tourism on locals is both positive and negative. Among the positive examples are increased property values, more employment and business opportunities, increased exposure and political clout for legislative/natural space protection issues, etc. Sadly the negative impacts, especially for a long time landowner who doesn't embrace growth / change (NIMBY, see Union/Essex/Bergen for pinnacle examples of this) can far outweigh the benefits. Visitors, even when respectful, stress the local infrastructure, crowd the once sleepy recreation scene, and add environmental impact.
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I think "benefits" and "positive" means different things to different people though.
 
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